Some will always be afraid, some will always be angry, some will never stop hurting and some will never stop seeking revenge.
In every case though, every one has someone else to blame. :(

True enough, so if people know their doing it, shoudlnt they at least try and stop doing it?

Beside, the human nature point isnt very accurate, I mean people do lots of things that are contridictary to human nature,after all.

Saddam Hussein is evil..but:

Who bankrolled, equipped, and trained the Iraqis in an attempt to destabilize post-Revolutionary Iran during Iran-Iraq's war where Saddam used chemical weapons and all that and was more or less responsible for 1.5 million deaths?

In response to this topic title: iron_Ranger, this is just that: a point of view. Everyone is entitled to their own points of view and Neo-Nazism involves subdueing those POV and not letting individuals think individual thoughts.

<font color="#cc3399"> I do believe it was the good old US of A. Pitty that even with all our technology and money we can't see the future. I suppose no one else has ever goofed either. Of course we could have just gone on a Jag of massive imperialism and taken the territory for our own. ;)

I think you are wrong with the one thing though, about destabilization of post revolutionary Iran. What the goal was, was to stabilize the middle east, so as to not interrupt a vital natural resource to our markets....and to all of europe too.

Jimmy Carter was/is a very religious man, he actually believes in the principles of christianity and was trying to apply them to the middle east when he "CAUSED" the revolution in Iran by denying aid to the Shaw over the principle of human rights and how he treated his people. No one planned for Saddam to be a madman who would use chemical and biological agents against others. And while we are on this topic...How come the UN, Europe and Asia didn't bother to do anything about his use of these illegal weapons of mass destruction against Iran? </font>

[ 09-12-2002, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font color="#cc3399"> Quite right Kaltia. I disagree with many views and ideas on here, but I really wouldnt want to be responsible for not allowing those different opinons to be expressed...no matter how much I love to debate them or try to pick them apart [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

Well I think you get the prize for oversimplification of a VERY complex issue. Even if it was as simple as the US supporting Iraq to get at Iran, the US didn't have ANYTHING to do with the Iran/Iraq war. You must be one of the gang that thinks it's ok to blame car makers when someone drinks and drives and kills someone eh? No need for personal or national responsibility these days... because we can always blame someone else.

The cold war was still in full swing in those days, there were a myriad of other issues in play... and Iran was our ENEMY. Perhaps we should have simply allowed Iran to run roughshod over the whole of the Middle East... that certainly would have resulted in fewer casualties... RIGHT? Perhaps we should have let the Soviets do whatever they wanted in the region and stayed out of it... that would have save MANY lives... RIGHT?

You're making a broad generalization and using a fraction of the supporting data to justify it, barely scratching the surface of the issues that affected actions and reactions during those events.

[ 09-12-2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

<font color="#cc3399"> Quite right Kaltia. I disagree with many views and ideas on here, but I really wouldnt want to be responsible for not allowing those different opinons to be expressed...no matter how much I love to debate them or try to pick them apart [img]smile.gif[/img] </font></font>[/QUOTE]Wow, we're actually agreeing this time instead of deliberatly misinterperating each other? :D
Achievemant!

No need for flames Thoran... I am all for National Responsiblility and i think that Saddam should be taken down. But I also think that National Responsibility would include some kind of acknowledgement from those governments that helped to create his regime.. If you had a hand in creating the mess...you should have a hand in cleaning it up. Thats why i do approve of USA's current stance on Iraq. I'm not looking to <u>blame</u> the US for the problems over there...Obviously Hussein is the evil one here.

Iran wasnt running roughshod over the whole middle east..it was Iraq that started that war in an attempt to capture most of the persian gulf but he met greater resistance from the Iranians than anticipated.

EDIT> i said originally that Iraq started the war to capture the whole persian gulf...where i meant mainly the eastern side of it.

[ 09-12-2002, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

*cough* "most of this country's imports come from outside the country"
[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] well done, dubya, on the right track there!

<font color="#cc3399"> Yeah it has been known to happen :D Even I can't be a total ass all the time ;) </font>

<font color="#cc3399">
Umm can you supply the origin of this quote?? Looks like something I would like to read in context.
</font>

<font color="#cc3399"> Yeah it has been known to happen :D Even I can't be a total ass all the time ;) </font></font>[/QUOTE]That's MY Job!

I found the speech. I hope you don't mind me jumping in to help.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0020617-2.html

Mark

<font color="#cc3399"> Thanks <font color=red> Mark</font> I don't mind at all [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color=red> Kaltia </font> LOL [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

What, it's true [img]tongue.gif[/img]
*realises how far off-topic she has gone and doesn't care either ;) *

<font color="#cc3399"> I see it is an article about people..immigrants coming to this country with nothing and proving that in America it isn't just the rich that can succeed....an article loaded with several examples of what this country is all about. I also see he is telling them that while we need to send our armies out, we can also love others as we love ourselves...seems to me it was more directed at the people from other nations living here with us but it works on an international level too I suppose. All in all a cool speach, full of proofs about the promise of America [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

I realized that I came on stronger than intended... so I'd already edited my post... sadly my self-auditing was too slow... consider this an apoligy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-12-2002, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

I found the speech. I hope you don't mind me jumping in to help.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0020617-2.html

Mark</font>[/QUOTE]At least you have a president with a sense of humor...


I think we agree, the past is over.
-- On his meeting with John McCain, Dallas Morning News, May 10, 2000

And one of the things we've got to make sure that we do is anything.
-- On the Middle East, meeting with Israeli PM Sharon, Washington, D.C., May 7, 2002

Oh, please don't kill me.
-- Texas Governor Dubya Bush, said with a laugh to reporters asking what death row convict Carla Faye Tucker said to him in her appeal for clemency

We cannot let terrorists and rogue nations hold this nation hostile or hold our allies hostile.
-- Des Moines, Iowa, Aug. 21, 2000

Over 50 percent of our energy comes from overseas. Fortunately, a lot of it comes from Canada.
-- Apparently an invisible ocean separates the U.S. and Canada, town hall forum in Ontario, California, Jan. 5, 2002

And I don't want Congress messing with the budget.
-- Because apparently that isn't their job, remarks at Albers Manufacturing, O'Fallon, Missouri, Mar. 18, 2002

And today, I'm informing the prime minister that we're lifting the travel ban on Turkey.
-- Which would have been a good thing if there had been a travel ban in the first place; unfortunately for Dubya, there wasn't, press conference with Turkish prime minister, Jan. 17, 2002

DUBYA: So what state is Wales in?
CHURCH: It’s a separate country next to England.
DUBYA: Oh, okay.
-- Exchange between Dubya and Welsh teenage singing sensation Charlotte Church, as reported in MSNBC, Oct. 30, 2001

Most people in Arkansas know where Texas is, and all the people in Texas know where Arkansas is.
-- Insulting Arkansas in front of a group of Arkansas schoolchildren, Little Rock, Mar. 1, 2001

DUBYA: Because the picture on the newspaper. It just seems so un-American to me, the picture of the guy storming the house with a scared little boy there. I talked to my little brother, Jeb--I haven't told this to many people. But he's the governor of--I shouldn't call him my little brother--my brother, Jeb, the great governor of Texas.
JIM LEHRER: Florida.
DUBYA: Florida. The state of the Florida.
-- The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer, PBS, April 27, 2000

Hey I just found the speech, I didn't mean to find a link that made Bush look good! ;) (Hang my head in shame! :( )

Mark

Hey Thoran its all good! ;)

<font color="#cc3399"> ROTFL Mark....sheesh hehehehe (whew too many laughs today [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Ok to make you feel better, Bush can't take credit for those peoples successes. Only they can take credit, it is they who came here with next to nothing, and succeeded by playing by the rules as they exist instead of taking the "victim" mentality or by falling for the "entitlement" fallacy or worse yet, crying out about discrimination and white oppression.

Only those people and America as a whole can be credited with their ability to succeed! (You can't tell that I really believe in America can you?)</font>

[ 09-12-2002, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Hey! I thought Australia was on top!
http://australia-fare.com/maps/UpsideDownMap-lge.jpg

*checks again*

Well, well, I stand corrcted! Well done that man.

I forgot, what's an America again?

Hey! I thought Australia was on top!
http://australia-fare.com/maps/UpsideDownMap-lge.jpg</font>[/QUOTE]Exactly! There's no up or down or top or bottom in space! :D

From today's edition of The Times newspaper:

PRESIDENT BUSH, though famed for his solecisms, is something of a poet after all. Well, of sorts. The following is composed of quotes from Dubya that have been arranged by the Washington Post writer Richard Thompson. It’s too good not to share, especially during America’s National Poetry Month.

MAKE THE PIE HIGHER By George W. Bush

I think that we all agree, the past is over.
This is still a dangerous world.
It’s a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses.
Rarely is the question asked
Is our children learning?
Will the highways of the Internet become more few?
How many hands have I shaked?
They misunderestimate me.
I am a pitbull on the pantleg of opportunity.
I know that the human being and the fish can coexist.
Families is where our nation finds hope, where
Our wings take dream.
Put food on your family!
Knock down the tollbooth!
Vulcanize society!
Make the pie higher! Make the pie higher!

Thank You Donut. I can use some good laughs, these days! :D

Mark

<font color="#cc6699">Lol yeah Bush is no public speaker, and that is a fact. But if you even try to get past the fact that he is lousey at making speaches and listen to what he says instead of how he says it, I think you will find a man with a good heart and honest conviction...something that the Washington Post would never be able to understand. And good morning to you all! [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

I nearly choked on a cashew nut reading that poem, then I remembered the choking incident involving Bush and choked some more. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/nut.gif

I choked on a pretzel once...it was NOT fun! :D

Mark

I choked on pork... guess I was pigging out too much. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Dad gave me the heimlich and OUT it popped... the guy who invented that manuver deserves the Nobel, I can't even imagine how many lives he's saved.

Are we getting off topic. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 09-13-2002, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

I was watching this naff horror film once with this guy and a possessed hand...it was just so funny I choked on coke!

That's more tna you can say for some of his critics. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="#cc6699">I've seen that! [img]smile.gif[/img] god was that awful...can't remember the name though.</font>

<font color="#cc6699">I've seen that! [img]smile.gif[/img] god was that awful...can't remember the name though.</font></font>[/QUOTE]ah...but did you choke on coke?
*remembers guy with chainsaw and hand running into mouse hole*
oh good I've just sprayed Dr. Pepper all over my keyboard....

<font color="#cc6699">I've seen that! [img]smile.gif[/img] god was that awful...can't remember the name though.</font></font>[/QUOTE]Evil Dead 2

The whole series if Evil Dead 1, Evil Dead 2, and Army of Darkness. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks Jim [img]smile.gif[/img]
*attempts to mop up Dr Pepper but it is too late...needs a new keyboard darn it :( *

<font color="#cc6699">I've seen that! [img]smile.gif[/img] god was that awful...can't remember the name though.</font></font>[/QUOTE]Evil Dead 2

The whole series if Evil Dead 1, Evil Dead 2, and Army of Darkness. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#cc6699">No...that isn't the one I was thining of...Im actually a Bruce Campbell fan And a Sam Raimi fan too...(oh and I loved Army of Darkness..wish they had done a sequel to that [img]smile.gif[/img]

No the one I am thinking of had a guy wandering around where one of his hands or arms was possesed and that was the whole movie.....</font>

[ 09-13-2002, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]