It's sad how some Imams with a propoganda goal can out-do the embassies and diplomats.

Aren't some of the world's art treasures pictures of Mohammad?

And these people are too easily manipulated to violence. Maybe all people are. Maybe people in dire straits are. Dunno.

Are you still Professor of Irony at Tel Aviv University?

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Are you still Professor of Irony at Tel Aviv University? </font>[/QUOTE]Why, i still am, thank you very much. As the matter of fact i was promoted to the Archmaster Of Irony And Sarcasm. :D

So how about my idea in my previous post? This way the barbarians will learn that theare are some things that they should shut up about. (Note: the anthisemic pictures in Muslim countries are published on a regular basis. Almost no one cares, including me. One can't change their way of thinking. I do not throw rocks at palestinians, however).

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/ara...ess_080702.asp

Take a look. What i mean is rather obvious.

Maybe we should have riots over this? After all, nobody wants to say anything to rioters.

I wonder what the koran says about drugdealing.

Anyway, here's some more

What was Omar peddling, crystal rubyiat?

Cocaine and Heroin according to the article.

Both of those links really really annoy me.

Firstly that the scum drug dealer was let out after only half of his sentence - I hate this government's criminal policies.

Secondly, the fact that everyone getting banged up (and rightfully so!) like Abu Hamza are getting convincted on old laws like incitement to murder also annoys me. We don't need all these new laws that stamp on our rights and invade our privacy. We just need existing laws to be enforced properly.

Now the Russians are on board.

http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?St...7-072431-9805r

[ 02-07-2006, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Well, the Russians are not really interesting i suppose, their planes fall from the skies without the help of terrorists, and their subs also sink spontaneously, no sport. And i'm not even going to mention their wussy little spacestation. :D

Why would you? You drive a tank!!

Whooooosshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

The Iranians are going to retaliate by publishing cartoons about The Holocaust.

That would be The Holocaust that they deny ever happened!!

:rolleyes:

<font color=skyblue>I read on CNN that they tried to storm a US base today, foolishly. They got shot up because of it. Why would they come after the US? I thought the US was wimping out of this particular fight. </font>

Maybe out of the fight, but it's evident we won't be bullied...

Well, you ARE the great Satan after all, so you're responsible for the Danish cartoons. Yes, that's it...it HAS to be an American conspiracy. :D The Danes are easier targets however, less chance of shooting back.

There's a difference between stepping up and backing down, the US is doing neither.

An encouraging article from Denmark.

Just FYI for those who asked earlier, Danish exports to the Arab world (presumably not the wider Muslim world) are worth $2.6 billion.

[ 02-08-2006, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Just to provide another side to this, here's the view from a Muslim friend of mine on the cartoon debacle.

Ooookaaayyyy. This comes back to following the verses that would make someone look good to people in the west, maybe catch them sleeping again?

Something suitably offensive for everyone.

http://vito.liquidmail.org/mohammed.gif

Memnoch, I think that quote you posted demonstrates how many Muslims simply are poor followers of their religion, just as many Christians are poor followers of the "turn the other cheek" doctrine.

</font>[/QUOTE]Interesting quotes there Memnoch, but the Sunnah (traditions) and Hadiths (documentation of the life and dealings of Moe) are rated by islamic scholars for accuracy based upon how closely they were written compared to when he lived, as well as accuracy based on his established character, and they have been since the first hadiths were written roughly 100 or so years after his death. Most are accepted as true by islamic institutions that teach future imams and other scholars. The hadith that mentions Moe going to the "greater jihad" wherein he sought to become more spiritually pure (and rendering holy war as a lesser jihad) is largely considered a "weak" or poorly supported hadith.

ISLAM: Resignation to the will of God. the misconception occurs commonly because of a similar word "in'salam" which means peace. (you may recall the merchant from Aladdin beginning the movie by saying "Salam and good evening to you"
How Moe dealt with criticism and how it reflects the reactions of his followers now
The arguement that he obeyed every command in the koran

some quotes from the koran: (out of respect for the moratorium you will have to select the text to see it)

<font color=333300> 2:191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

3:151 We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers.

3:178 And let not those who disbelieve imagine that the rein We give them bodeth good unto their souls. We only give them rein that they may grow in sinfulness. And theirs will be a shameful doom.

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

4:76 Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

4:91 Ye will find others who desire that they should have security from you, and security from their own folk. So often as they are returned to hostility they are plunged therein. If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

4:92 It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood- money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave.

5:33 The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;

5:38 As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

5:45 And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.

8:12 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

8:15 O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.
8:16 Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end.
8:17 Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.

8:59 And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
8:60 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.

8:65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:38 O ye who believe! What aileth you that when it is said unto you: Go forth in the way of Allah, ye are bowed down to the ground with heaviness. Take ye pleasure in the life of the world rather than in the Hereafter ? The comfort of the life of the world is but little in the Hereafter.
9:39 If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other than you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things.

9:41 Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! That is best for you if ye but knew.

9:73 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.
9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah ? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph

9:113 It is not for the Prophet, and those who believe, to pray for the forgiveness of idolaters even though they may be near of kin (to them) after it hath become clear that they are people of hell-fire

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you,, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)

18:104 Those whose effort goeth astray in the life of the world, and yet they reckon that they do good work.
18:105 Those are they who disbelieve in the revelations of their Lord and in the meeting with Him. Therefor their works are vain, and on the Day of Resurrection We assign no weight to them.
18:106 That is their reward: hell, because they disbelieved, and made a jest of Our revelations and Our messengers.

22:15 Whoso is wont to think (through envy) that Allah will not give him (Muhammad) victory in the world and the Hereafter (and is enraged at the thought of his victory), let him stretch a rope up to the roof (of his dwelling), and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispelleth that whereat he rageth!.

24:2 The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.

29:68 Who doeth greater wrong than he who inventeth a lie concerning Allah, or denieth the truth when it cometh unto him ? Is not there a home in hell for disbelievers ?

33:60 If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and the alarmists in the city do not cease, We verily shall urge thee on against them, then they will be your neighbours in it but a little while.
33:61 Accursed, they will be seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter.

38:33 (Then David said): Bring them back to me, and fell to slashing (with his sword their) legs and necks.

45:9 And when he knoweth aught of Our revelations he maketh it a jest. For such there is a shameful doom.

47:4 Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

58:14 Hast thou not seen those who take for friends a folk with whom Allah is wroth ? They are neither of you nor of them, and they swear a false oath knowingly.

61:4 Lo! Allah loveth them who battle for His cause in ranks, as if they were a solid structure.</font>

[ 02-09-2006, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

Quite the versatile little fairytalebook, no ? Which quotes am i to believe ? Or are all of them inthere ? In that case it isn't even a fairytale, but one giant contradiction of itself. Or is the book patched perhaps ? Memnoch's quotes are from the 1.1 version, and Morguerat's from the 1.2 ?

[ 02-09-2006, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: johnny ]

It's all in there, here's what the koran has to say about contradictions and abrogation.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...a/by_name.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.co...brogation.html

[ 02-09-2006, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4698528.stm

On a note unrelated to the linked article but relevant to the thread itself, the cartoons were commisioned at the request of the newspaper because an author was having difficulty getting an artist to depict mohammed for a novel he was writing, most of the artists he had approached refused out of fear of retaliation.

You know, I vividly remember reading that Mohammed waging several battle/war against his opponent from my secondary history book. Mind you, that history book was printed by the Malaysian education ministry.

That's accurate as far as I know. I'm a little rusty, but as I recall Muslims were persecuted in the very beginnings, chased from their homes and Mohammed had to raise an army to fight back. They just happened to be rather good at it.

But when you think about it, the whole world was inhabited by savages back then really...

Good point Shamrock. If you think about it, Christians were responsible for some shocking savagery and violence back during the Crusades as well. Ironically, back in the Middle Ages Islam was the culture of enlightenment and Christianity was the barbaric one. Don't forget the Old Testament's "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Glass houses and stones and all that.

Still, that was back then and this is now. In today's information age, what's happening in the Middle East with kidnappings and whatnot is a bit of a disgrace, eh.

As I also recall, it appears that the Islamic Conquests lasted nearly 200 years, and the gradual expansion of Islam through violent means only stopped when Turkey lost "The Great Turkish War"?

When the options are an equal share of all booty (-20% for mohammed) for survivors, or paradise with all the hedonistic excess you could desire for those who die it becomes a win-win situation to go down fighting (it also controls the male-population to make 4-wives a feasible situation, ie less male competition)

A Pakistani cleric has offered a million dollars for anyone who kills one of the cartoonists.

Source: NZ Herald

[ 02-19-2006, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Oh, now we're offering bounties? Well, an eye for an eye and all that. I'm giving away boxes of frootloops to whoever brings me the scalp of an Iman. Their attacks on my God shall not be tolerated!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

Really, anybody interested in the early history of Islam should read the above article for a nice summary. There's also a separate 'history of Islam' article linked there if you really like your details!

Seeing as it's also a stick regularly used to attack Muhammed with by the West, this article also provides a nice summary of the problems related to accurately dating the age of Aisha. Worth noting that all the accounts of her being 9 come from a book written 100 years after her death yet supposedly narrated by her. I treat that with the same disdain as I do all religious texts which make similar claims. The historical calculations all seem to place a more realistic age to her.

[ 02-19-2006, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

The crusades were quite amusing really. Especially the ones that got distracted on the way to the Holy Lands and just randomly pillaged other cities instead for the sake of it.

The latest cartoon news is that one of the authors has finally spoken to a Scottish newspaper revealing that he was inspired by terrorism and saying that he doesn't apologise for creating them. I can't find the story on the Beeb anymore though.

There's a slight problem with wikipedia articles and controversial articles, since they can be editted by anyone a group of vigilant white-washers can conceal just about anything and defy all attempts at correcting false entries... just saying.

Also regarding Aisha, her age is accepted as fact by AL Azhar(sp?) college (the most prestigious institute of islamic learning (forgive the oxymoron), and has been the basis of sharia law for 12 centuries and more, I sent you a link a while ago about statements from Ayatolla Khomeini (the man who took control of Iran after he helped oust the Shah) where he established the age of adulthood for women at 9 (meaning legally they could be married, tried, executed, etc as adults(according to the articles I've read he married her at 6 and consumated the relationship when she was 9)) because of the example of mohammed (which is where most of sharia law comes from). The point being that unfortunately the true facts matter less than how they are interpretted and used by average muslims today, and scholars of islam tend to take a look more at the established and commonly accepted parts of the faith rather than taking a critical, unbiased view of events (those who try taking that critical eye are more often than not condemned for their efforts)

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117...-38197,00.html

An islamic court in India has issued a death fatwa for the cartoonists.