Just to relate back to our earlier discussions, foreigners involved in the disturbances will be deported immediately, even if they are in the country legally according to the interior minister.

Hmmm, why just the foreigners? I'm not hearing that much about domestic disturbers.

Because you can't deport your own citizens. It's a contradiction in terms, no?

You can exile them no? As Dante in Florence.

If they're your own citizens, where are you going to exile them to? It's not like we live in the days where there is some wild, untamed "outland" you can send them to, you have to foist them onto another country. Which country? How to make them take your cast-offs?

Where to exile them to? Why not throw them into the Ivory Coast?

I don't know about Algeria, but Morocco insists that emigrating people stick to their Moroccan nationalities, even after they are long enough in their new homeland to call themselves legal citizens. So their double nationality gives France the stick to beat them with. It's probably not going to be pretty, taking a sixteen year old kid away from his parents, and ship him off back to the old country, and they'll probably have to adjust some laws in the future, but i guess the French can get away with it. They are considering to do the same overhere with people with double nationalities who keep breaking the law.

To bad we don't have any deep space colonies. We could have sent them to some uranium mine on Pluto or something. :D

[ 11-10-2005, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

Awesome idea. Looks appraisingly at Australia. Sure you guys don't have any room? It'd be just like old times... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Something you want to admit to Shamrock? Are you admitting you're a criminal seeking a new start in a colony? :D

You mean turning Australia into a prison colony? What do you get these kind of ideas from? :D

Edit: Maybe we could send them to that place that run out of beer. It's sounds backwater enough.

[ 11-11-2005, 07:49 AM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

I kind of got really personally affected by this for some reason. I'm a fairly congenial, kindhearted person and I appreciate that there's a lot of inequality in our world and governments can and should do a lot more to integrate people who are underprivileged. But I don't have a lot of sympathy for morons who torch cars, burn neighbourhoods, shoot or throw Molotovs at firemen trying to do their bloody jobs and loot stores just because they're angry about inequality. The quote from one of the rioters: "I don't know the words to express my situation. I have only anger - and I know how to express that."

Rather than whinging and rioting try and bloody apply yourself. Don't drop out of school (I hear a lot of these communities have very high dropout rates even though the government provides free public schooling. That'll improve your chances of getting a good job. From what I've read about this here in Boston and spoken to French people in my class (and I encourage anyone who has contrary info to correct me) the French government pays for public housing as well? In fact most places in Europe have much more of a socialist mentality than places in the US (Australia is more than the US but not as much as Europe - not any more).

I suppose my views are tainted by where my family came from. My mother and father both came from humble beginnings. My dad was dirt poor when he was young. He came from a simple village in the provinces. My grandfather was a farmer. My mother also came from a poor family. Her father was a fisherman. There were times when they had to tape their shoes up because they couldn't afford to get new ones when they were at school. For notebooks they glued pieces of paper together and used that.

But they worked bloody hard to try and create a better future for us. My grandparents sacrificed so much to make sure their kids got an education in Manila, the education they never got. They all sacrificed (and in a third world country sacrifice doesn't mean not being able to buy that DVD you wanted, it means sometimes going without food for a few days because you just can't afford it). But they rose above all that by working their bloody arses off, so that they could in turn make sure WE (my sister and I) didn't have to go through what they went through. My father went from humble beginnings as the son of an illiterate farmer to Director of Finance for Procter & Gamble Asia Pacific. And he did it by sheer bloody hard work and perseverance.

I suppose those values of hard work, perseverance and refusal to admit defeat no matter what the external factors are were imprinted on us at an early age. Our parents taught us to NEVER take anything for granted. They also taught us that you may not get exactly to where you want, but you CAN change your life, even if the world seems like it's against you.

I don't deny for a moment the frustration and despair that some of these young people feel. I totally agree the govts should do more to provide education, opportunities, etc. But everytime I go to the Philippines to visit my folks I see people in even more hopeless situations. Some of them are my relatives. But they bloody try and DO something about their plights. They know that the Philippine government has no money to help them, to provide free schooling and housing. I myself am paying to send some of my cousins' kids to school.

Apply yourself even if the situation seems hopeless. Be a taxi driver. Work as a labourer. Save some money. That's where it starts - with attitude. Try and do something to change your life - don't expect the government to do it all for you. I'll wager that some of these thugs who are torching cars and looting shops while whinging about not having a fair go are ones who dropped out of school early and spent their adolescence hanging around street corners wasting their lives earlier on. It's right to try and effect social change in a non-violent way like Martin Luther King did - but try and help yourself as well.

Sorry for such a long and personal post but I just read an article about this in the Boston Globe then I came on here for the first time in a long while (been so bloody busy with uni) and read about this and it really touched a nerve with me.

Congradulations to your relatives Mem, it's a story I hear alot here in Toronto, and enjoy hearing. That being said, I don't think these youths really care. Their parents made sacrifices as well, yet the youths seem to be content to piss away their future in an orgy of fire and violence.

~ Edit: Since the other thread got closed, here's the updates:
1) Riots restarted in Lyon and other regions in Europe.
2) Police are furious at Chirac for incarcerating one of their own.

[ 11-13-2005, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Sir Degrader ]

An emotional post, Memnoch, and well put. I'd hate to see how emotional you would have been had you touched on the topic nearest and dearest to your heart -- the destruction of poor innocent roadsters. ;)

Update: The army has been ruled out. Damn.

"And, although he ruled out bringing in the army, he said "at each step, we will take the necessary measures to re-establish order very quickly throughout France."

It was a bit of an emotional rant, but I wanted people to know that I'm not the most objective person around when it comes to evalating the merits of people who torch cars, destroy property and steal for fourteen days in a row.

Well, that's a normal reaction as far i'm concerned. I fail to see how this helps their situation too. There were already generalisations towards north Africans, and this is not going to benefit them one bit, the only thing they accomplish with this, is a bundle of extra votes for Le Pen on electionday. And if they think their situation is bad right now, or that things couldn't get any worse, then just wait and see what happens if that man calls the shots in France.

One other thing aside from poverty, was discrimination. They say the French government and the police discriminate them. Maybe things wouldn't be so bad if they were a bit more tolerant themselves, because you have to look damn hard to find a less tolerant race of people than them. Discrimination of women and homosexuals is part of their culture it seems, and don't even have the nerve to ask their feelings towards western values, religeons other than Islam, Americans and everything they stand for, and last but not least, the Jews.

Discrimination ? Bah....pot....kettle...black.

They're relying on Chirac going belly up. Which he migh, considering the way things are going. If Le Pen gets elected though... hoo hoo, I'd pay to be in France when that happens.

They're relying on Chirac going belly up. Which he migh, considering the way things are going. If Le Pen gets elected though... hoo hoo, I'd pay to be in France when that happens. </font>[/QUOTE]To see burning crosses everywhere and people dressed in white chanting "Le KKK se resemble liberté" as the nation's newest motto?

Although the above is a fairly black and white picture of what Le Pen stands for, I still detest people who just place the blame of the situation in an entire country with another group. One thing I'm glad I've learned is that it's not too bad to actually reflect back upon yourself and what you've done to have gotten in a bad situation. Most often there's a pretty damn good reason for it, and the fingerpointing should therefore be in your own direction instead of someone else's.
While slightly off-topic, just a couple of days ago there was a special on "Netwerk" [translated "Network" -- a Dutch tv-show focussing on national and international problems and issues mostly] about an English sociologist or psychologist (can't remember which one) who detested the fact that antisocial people without a basic income never place the blame on their situation themselves, but rather on something else ("Alcohol did this to me", while it was them who actually drained the bottle!). What I applaud him for is that he said he detested the people that praise these people because of their behaviour (you may remember the infamous Dutch family the Tokkie) even more.
Sorry for that little detour, but I just had to share.

-------
Just a little something for the discussion: a politician for the city of the Hague resigned not too long ago because he found himself saying: "Young muslims hide behind their religion to commit antisocial or rebellious deeds." Discuss away.

Well I just got back to Lyon by train. I knew there wasn't any public transportation (when I left on Thursday they said that at least until Sunday there was only going to be tranportation until 6 pm), but other than that I couldn't see any more effects of the riots.

And in other news, the European Commission is preparing up to a billion euros to aid the French, and provide for social reforms. Hm.. and here I was thinking the EU was trying to get money back from the French. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Different departments :D Got to love a beureacracy at times like these!

A billion ? Teletext said 50 million earlier tonight. What made them raise the amount so drastically ?

Anyway, i'm sending jack shit, and yes i do know who that is. :D

Heh.. nothing quite that sinister. ;) With 'getting money back', I refered to the proposed reduction of agricultural subsidies. A for the 'billion' euros. The 50 million is short-term money to help France recover for the riots. There may be an additional billion forthcoming to accomodate social changes that might prevent such riots in the future. After all, high unemployement is seen as a major cause of this chaos.

So when do we get all our money back as Europe's largest contributor to pretty much anything?

Heh.. nothing quite that sinister. ;) With 'getting money back', I refered to the proposed reduction of agricultural subsidies. A for the 'billion' euros. The 50 million is short-term money to help France recover for the riots. There may be an additional billion forthcoming to accomodate social changes that might prevent such riots in the future. After all, high unemployement is seen as a major cause of this chaos. </font>[/QUOTE]Shouldn't that be France's business, and France's business alone ? Germany has also high unemployement, are they gonna collect for them as well, so that they can prevent any possible future riots ? I also just heard that the government is considering to take over the 250 billion debt of the Antillen, in exchange for stopping the yearly 80 million for development there. What are they trying to do here ? Save the whole friggin planet ?

They are? I heard Pechtold was fiercly opposed to that plan, and I agree. Our country is in enough debt as it is. Link: during the current EU-budget negotiations, the government has demanded that either other countries start paying more, or we'll start paying less. So I guess the answer to your question is: soon. On a related note. We may be paying the most, we are also one of the countries that used to get the most out of EU-membership. We are definately not running at a loss.