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-   -   Pacifist and Idealist synonymous? A word about war from a war vet.. (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70578)

Moridin 09-27-2001 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Absynthe:
Hoping that two wrongs will make you right?


Why not it seems to be the basis for argument from the otherside

If two people agree then it must be right http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/rolleyes.gif

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Absynthe 09-27-2001 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth:
Should I try a collection for two seats on the plane?

Oh me! I have been hoist on my own petard and flayed by your razor wit...


Silver Cheetah 09-27-2001 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
There is a lot I wanted to respond to, but this was on the last page so I will start here http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Wouldn't we be getting ourselves into the same situation as we have in the past (and that some people here are against)...if we support the Northern Alliance and help them gain a majority rule in Afghanistan, isn't that the same as supplying the Taliban and bin Laden in their fight against Russia? How do we know that the Northern Alliance will turn out any better? We cannot argue that support was a bad choice in one instant and then turn around and try to justify it in the next. We (any country that lost citizens in the attack) should deal with this matter directly, not through support of an opposition group.



Good point, Moridin. That was a thought that came into my head on the spur of the moment - hadn't thought through the implications.

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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

Absynthe 09-27-2001 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
Why not it seems to be the basis for argument from the otherside

If two people agree then it must be right http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/rolleyes.gif


Thanks for catching that Moridin...
There's been such opportunity for everyone posting lately to learn from each other, opportunity which has been all but squandered. Rather than trying on each others' ideas and truly attempting to understand other viewpoints, there has been a seemingly ever-increasing divisiveness which will lead us in a perfect circle back to where we started. Camps are forming, Hawk and Dove, Left and Right, Conservative and Liberal, Dumb and Dumber.
In a few cases, people are actually having useful discourse and learning from each other, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. For my part, I have no great wisdom to impart, no agenda to further, so I will do what I can to try and inject a bit of humor. BTW, I think the line in your sig about teaching pigs to sing is widely applicable in most of the debates/rants that are being carried on.



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Silver Cheetah 09-27-2001 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Absynthe:
Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
Why not it seems to be the basis for argument from the otherside

If two people agree then it must be right http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/rolleyes.gif


Thanks for catching that Moridin...
There's been such opportunity for everyone posting lately to learn from each other, opportunity which has been all but squandered. Rather than trying on each others' ideas and truly attempting to understand other viewpoints, there has been a seemingly ever-increasing divisiveness which will lead us in a perfect circle back to where we started. Camps are forming, Hawk and Dove, Left and Right, Conservative and Liberal, Dumb and Dumber.
In a few cases, people are actually having useful discourse and learning from each other, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. For my part, I have no great wisdom to impart, no agenda to further, so I will do what I can to try and inject a bit of humor. BTW, I think the line in your sig about teaching pigs to sing is widely applicable in most of the debates/rants that are being carried on.


Heya Absynthe, how you doing, chucky egg? Nice post!!


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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

Sir Kenyth 09-27-2001 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Absynthe:

Oh me! I have been hoist on my own petard and flayed by your razor wit...


Are you hurt? Did I hurt cha? Are ya OK?


Wait? *sniff* Do I smell sarcasm? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif

Absynthe 09-27-2001 12:43 PM

Heya Absynthe, how you doing, chucky egg? Nice post!!


Greetings, Oh Argent Puss! Thanks for that, I seem to be getting spleenish lately... Not doing too badly overall, a bit rushed today from the brouhaha at work, kinda feeling the mileage. About time for a quiet weekend curled up with a good bunch of books. Looking forward to poets day, I am.
In re Fljotsdales test results: Is she as innocent as all that?

Ciao



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Silver Cheetah 09-27-2001 12:44 PM


After consideration, I go back to my original thought on this topic, which is that we need a world body with TEETH which would function under the rule of law to deal with situations such as the one we currently find ourselves faced with. I cannot see any other option which would work. All other methods are just short termism, including assassinating bin Laden, which is just going to drive a large part of the Middle East crazy, and create yet more terrorists.

This is the perfect opportunity, whilst all nations are reeling from the shock of the events, for us to come together in relative harmony AGAINST all those who either commit, sanction or aid and abet human rights abuses worldwide. (This has implications for sales of arms, torture weapons, certain biological and chemical agents and so on.)

Such a body would have many weapons at its command, over and above military. Economic, for one. (Although I totally oppose sanctions on necessities such as foods and medicines, which just make matters far worse).

A world body solution would avoid countries taking unilateral action, which I believe is a big mistake. This would avoid overly hasty action being taken or the blaming of one single country when an action misfired. In addition, the expense in terms of human resources and financial costs would not have to be borne by any one country.

So I guess such a force would combine aspects of Nato, the security council and so on.

A world body could also be authorised to legislate (and prosecute) in regard to arms sales to corrupt and abusive regimes, something which is desperately needed. The company directors of any company who sells to a regime with arms sanctions would be prosecuted and jailed if found guilty.

A world body could also ban particular types of chemical and biological research, and prosecute offenders, (that includes in the West.)

This isn’t a particularly easy option, but this is the best time ever to start putting it in place, as awareness is pretty high right now in comparison with what it usually is. I think there would be a lot of support for such a body. It would take a lot to get it in place and get it to work, but to my mind, it would be very much worth doing. The overall impetus would be for peace and security for all peoples.




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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

Absynthe 09-27-2001 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth:
Are you hurt? Did I hurt cha? Are ya OK?


Wait? *sniff* Do I smell sarcasm? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif

Either that, or my deodorant is wearing off... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hihi.gif

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[This message has been edited by Absynthe (edited 09-27-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Absynthe (edited 09-27-2001).]

Sir Kenyth 09-27-2001 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Absynthe:
Either that, or my deodorant is wearing off... :hee hee:


LOL! I should've expected that. It always happens when I use that line!

Absynthe 09-27-2001 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth:
LOL! I should've expected that. It always happens when I use that line!
Can't rule out the possibility that you're smelling my sig, either...




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DragonMage 09-27-2001 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Absynthe:
Can't rule out the possibility that you're smelling my sig, either...
[/B]
Or (as my Dad likes to say) - his upper lip! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif
sorry, couldn't resist that *slinks away in shame*

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The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c)

Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan.
Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force
Honored to be a member of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever!
Mage extraordinair.
Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy

Hopeless Romantic *sigh*

"Allright! We'll call it a draw."

[This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 09-27-2001).]

Silver Cheetah 09-27-2001 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Absynthe:
Heya Absynthe, how you doing, chucky egg? Nice post!!


Greetings, Oh Argent Puss! Thanks for that, I seem to be getting spleenish lately... Not doing too badly overall, a bit rushed today from the brouhaha at work, kinda feeling the mileage. About time for a quiet weekend curled up with a good bunch of books. Looking forward to poets day, I am.
In re Fljotsdales test results: Is she as innocent as all that?

Ciao


And fond greetings back to toi aussi, Oh Gall and Wormwooded one.... Fljots's test results (a touch ovarian, that phrase, don't you find?...) yup, I'd say so.

Of course, she could be lying through her teeth EH FLJOTS! Time to come out of the ironing cupboard!!!! We want the lowdown on the hoedown!!! ... (Eh what???)

Time for a cooling drink......... and a think....


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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

Rikard 09-27-2001 12:57 PM

from CNN
Quote:


<h1>Jesse Jackson mulls invitation from Taliban</h1>


<span class="Small">September 27, 2001 Posted: 0033 GMT
<\/span>

<table align="left" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" width="220"><tr><td>

<div align="left">
<table>
<tr>
<td><script language="JavaScript" src="/virtual/2001/code/clickability2/button2001_1.js">
</script>
</td>
<td><script language="JavaScript" src="/virtual/2001/code/clickability2/button2001_2.js">
</script>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</div>

<hr noshade size="1">
< !--endclickprintexclude-->
</td></tr></table>




WASHINGTON (AP) -- Jesse Jackson said Wednesday that
Afghanistan's ruling Taliban militia has asked him to lead a
"peace delegation" to the region.

</p>





The civil rights activist said he has not decided whether to
accept and remains reluctant to do so. But he suggested he is open
to making the trip if his involvement could prevent the deaths of
innocent Afghan civilians during a U.S. military campaign against
terrorism.
</p>





"We must weigh what this invitation means. We're not going to
be precipitous," Jackson said. "If we can do something to
encourage them to dismantle those terrorist bases, to choose to
hand over the suspects and release the Christians rather than
engage in a long bloody war, we'll encourage them to do so."
</p>





Jackson said he spoke with Secretary of State Colin Powell, who
repeated the Bush administration position that it will not
negotiate with the Taliban but did not urge Jackson not to go.
</p>





White House spokesman Ari Fleischer declined to comment. "I
would just reiterate what the president has said, that he will not
engage in any negotiations or discussions" with the Taliban,
Fleischer said.
</p>





"Either the Taliban government is going to stand alone and take
on this world pressure, or they are going to look for some graceful
way out," Jackson said. "I hope that appealing to a peace
delegation could be a bridge."
</p>





The United States has accused the Taliban of harboring Osama bin
Laden, the Saudi multimillionaire suspected of involvement in the
September 11 terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.
</p>





Jackson said he received the invitation to go to Pakistan in a
telegram Wednesday from Mohammed Sohail Shaheen, a spokesman at the
Taliban's embassy in Islamabad. The hard-line Islamic Taliban
movement controls much of Afghanistan; Pakistan is the only
remaining nation that recognizes them as the government of the
Central Asian country.
</p>





The Bush administration has called bin Laden, harbored by
Afghanistan since 1996, the chief suspect in the September 11 attacks
in New York and Washington that left nearly 7,000 people presumed
dead.
</p>





The United States has demanded that the Taliban hand over bin
Laden and the top lieutenants in his al-Qaida terrorist network,
and extinguish the terrorist training camps in their country.
</p>





"We would like to see this situation resolved in a way that
preserves the dignity and integrity of all sides ... in the
interest of avoiding the humanitarian catastrophe that would befall
the people of Afghanistan as a result of military strikes,"
Jackson quoted the telegram as saying.
</p>





Jackson has undertaken several missions to win the release of
American hostages overseas. In 1999 he secured the release of three
American soldiers captured by Serbs in Yugoslavia.
</p>



<p align="center" class="rightsreserved">Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.</p>

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[This message has been edited by Rikard (edited 09-27-2001).]

Rikard 09-27-2001 01:00 PM

they offer a peaceful solution
give them the benifit of the doubt

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Behold he who stands before you

http://www.phpshop.net/images/rikard/rikard2.gif

Almighty (shared) Leader of the OHF
Proud member of the Ancients Club
The one True Necromancer/Blade of the Laughing Hyena's
Last of the Ancient race known as the Red Fluffies
Summoner of Bunnies

"You can Run, You can Hide,
But you can never do both"
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I'm Watching you...

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Absynthe 09-27-2001 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DragonMage:
Or (as my Dad likes to say) - his upper lip! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif
sorry, couldn't resist that *slinks away in shame*


Hmmm... well I do have a mustache... or is that musk-stash? I don't know the etymology.



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Silver Cheetah 09-27-2001 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Absynthe:
Hmmm... well I do have a mustache...


Why?


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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

Moridin 09-27-2001 04:08 PM

I have noticed of late, how almost all of these 'serious' threads have been taken off topic...they can't be too serious then, can they?

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Sir Kenyth 09-27-2001 04:11 PM

We're just lightening up before the thread dies. Sheeeeesh! I don't want to leave in a bad mood or anything. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif I've got a long weekend coming here. I need to get my mind set on pleasant things.

Silver Cheetah 09-27-2001 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
I have noticed of late, how almost all of these 'serious' threads have been taken off topic...they can't be too serious then, can they?


What's wrong with that?

There's something very attractive about laughter, Moridin! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif I do get bored with hearing the same old arguments over and over and over again. In the end, it's love (and humour)that will save the race, not the ability to bang one's heada against a brick wall until it's mashed into pulp. Communication on serious topics is great, but there's been a lot of ill feeling. For now, I feel like backing off a trifle, and communicating on a slightly different level.

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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

Moridin 09-27-2001 04:35 PM

Sorry I came off as a bit harsh http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif (the whole quitting smoking thing http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif) but what I meant is that some of these threads should stay serious b/c 1) maybe others wish to post something on the actual subject or 2) it is discourteous to the original poster of the thread...please don't remind me who started the thread and who is be lighthearted I know it already, but sometimes the original poster wishes the thread to stay on topic and it goes off-topic...it really aggrevates me sometimes...

I guess I am saying...you want off-topic lighter humor...start a new thread!

Sorry tough day...please bear with me!

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http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif

Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

Silver Cheetah 09-27-2001 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
Sorry I came off as a bit harsh http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif (the whole quitting smoking thing http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif) but what I meant is that some of these threads should stay serious b/c 1) maybe others wish to post something on the actual subject or 2) it is discourteous to the original poster of the thread...please don't remind me who started the thread and who is be lighthearted I know it already, but sometimes the original poster wishes the thread to stay on topic and it goes off-topic...it really aggrevates me sometimes...

I guess I am saying...you want off-topic lighter humor...start a new thread!

Sorry tough day...please bear with me!


Oh I see. Ok. This thread got a bit heated back there, and I started lightening up a bit to cool things down. Then I forgot about the original topic altogether! But I do see what you mean..



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Ascended Mistress of Illumination

Absynthe 09-27-2001 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moridin:
Sorry I came off as a bit harsh http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif (the whole quitting smoking thing http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif) but what I meant is that some of these threads should stay serious b/c 1) maybe others wish to post something on the actual subject or 2) it is discourteous to the original poster of the thread...please don't remind me who started the thread and who is be lighthearted I know it already, but sometimes the original poster wishes the thread to stay on topic and it goes off-topic...it really aggrevates me sometimes...

I guess I am saying...you want off-topic lighter humor...start a new thread!

Sorry tough day...please bear with me!


It's all good, Moridin, you have a valid and timely point there. I've been hijacking threads lately when I probably should have started new ones... mea culpa.
Don't worry about having a bad day in front of everyone, either. The whole bloody planet's been having a downer lately...

Blessed Be




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Donut 09-28-2001 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Absynthe:
Heya Absynthe, how you doing, chucky egg? Nice post!!


Greetings, Oh Argent Puss! Thanks for that, I seem to be getting spleenish lately... Not doing too badly overall, a bit rushed today from the brouhaha at work, kinda feeling the mileage. About time for a quiet weekend curled up with a good bunch of books. Looking forward to poets day, I am.
In re Fljotsdales test results: Is she as innocent as all that?

Ciao


Absynthe - poet's day, profound grasp of syntax, hoist by your own petard. LOL You have to have British blood in you along the way. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif


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Save Chip - Don't let Sarah win!
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Absynthe 09-28-2001 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donut:
Absynthe - poet's day, profound grasp of syntax, hoist by your own petard. LOL You have to have British blood in you along the way. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif



Actually, I just found out in the last week or so that my father's family is about 60% Welsh and 40% Prussian. So I suppose that's a fairly near miss on British...



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WOLFGIR 09-28-2001 09:46 AM

Eye for an eye, tooh for a tooth, til one goes blind and the other one go Dumb..

Or Turn the other cheek around?

No matter what you all like or prefer,what you think you know, what you think is right.. I can tell you all one thing..

Getting harsh and rude here isnīt going to solve anything. We are ALL regardless entitled to our own thoughts and ideas, but also, we are here on a public forum made to have fun in.

Iīm not telling you you aer flaming each other, thats why I adress you all here. we all know that alot of bad things have happened lately.. But please. Take one or two more seconds when you post a message in a heated argument like this ok? Be nice, be realistic, be patient and respect each other. Iīm not asking you to love each other or to be happy merry friends or anything. Just observe that this flaming buisness is pretty booring oki. So you donīt agree? Fine, donīt agree, but donīt poke your stick into the hornets nest..

If you have a controversial thought, be prepaired to that people will react to it. So please, think before posting.. No more no less..



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Be vevvy qwiet..Iīm hunting wabbits...
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once-upon-a-paper

Absynthe 09-28-2001 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WOLFGIR:
Eye for an eye, tooh for a tooth, til one goes blind and the other one go Dumb..

Or Turn the other cheek around?

No matter what you all like or prefer,what you think you know, what you think is right.. I can tell you all one thing..

Getting harsh and rude here isnīt going to solve anything. We are ALL regardless entitled to our own thoughts and ideas, but also, we are here on a public forum made to have fun in.

Iīm not telling you you aer flaming each other, thats why I adress you all here. we all know that alot of bad things have happened lately.. But please. Take one or two more seconds when you post a message in a heated argument like this ok? Be nice, be realistic, be patient and respect each other. Iīm not asking you to love each other or to be happy merry friends or anything. Just observe that this flaming buisness is pretty booring oki. So you donīt agree? Fine, donīt agree, but donīt poke your stick into the hornets nest..

If you have a controversial thought, be prepaired to that people will react to it. So please, think before posting.. No more no less..



RIGHT ON WOLFIE!!!!!!!


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Grand-Ranger 09-28-2001 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WOLFGIR:
Eye for an eye, tooh for a tooth, til one goes blind and the other one go Dumb..

Or Turn the other cheek around?

No matter what you all like or prefer,what you think you know, what you think is right.. I can tell you all one thing..

Getting harsh and rude here isnīt going to solve anything. We are ALL regardless entitled to our own thoughts and ideas, but also, we are here on a public forum made to have fun in.

Iīm not telling you you aer flaming each other, thats why I adress you all here. we all know that alot of bad things have happened lately.. But please. Take one or two more seconds when you post a message in a heated argument like this ok? Be nice, be realistic, be patient and respect each other. Iīm not asking you to love each other or to be happy merry friends or anything. Just observe that this flaming buisness is pretty booring oki. So you donīt agree? Fine, donīt agree, but donīt poke your stick into the hornets nest..

If you have a controversial thought, be prepaired to that people will react to it. So please, think before posting.. No more no less..


Good post Wolfgir. I wish everyone would read this and take it to heart.

Very good post.

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So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be

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