ROTFLMAO

I didn't think you Rednecks gave up that easy.....

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http://wolfgir.najk.net/bilder/merlingray.gif
Feel My Power

Arcane Adept of the OHF, "So let it be written, So let it be done"

we don't like piss'n off the women folk , it makes for long cold nights.

Sigh another debate another person hurt, frankly I think everyone should say what they want but still try not to use your oppions as a club.

and on the topic, as I said it can all be solved by the word sorry from both sides but govermen are genrally jackass, that why I like the net, for the most part the rules of countries don't apply. Oh and on another note, no country is a super power anymore any action a country takes effects the world, it about time we thought like that.

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"I need no signature. Put together your own conglomeration of words and stick
it onto the tail of your email messages in hopes of coming off as clever or
deep. My messages speak volumes enough."
- Anonymous

'nuff said



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Feel My Power

Arcane Adept of the OHF, "So let it be written, So let it be done"

"Sigh another debate another person hurt, frankly I think everyone should say what they want but still try not to use your oppions as a club.

and on the topic, as I said it can all be solved by the word sorry from both sides"

Well said Gabriel.

What can we do about it other than post here and hurt each other anyway?
Les all be friends again and understand that the situation on a whole is out of our hands anyway.

Y'all can fight & fun iffen you want but I say let's go play and have fun.

Moni

"Live every minute as if it is your last...it just could be!"~Me http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

As much as I'd like to go back to ras'ln with'em the boss is on HBO so I'm signing off.

Goodnight John.

May your dreams be sweet and your mornings be filled with joy.

http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
Moni

personally the last thing i want is war between us and china. china is one of the last surviving "super powers". but i stand behind the way our government has been handling the situation. since our plane was in international air space, and was a very under powered craft. the accident was caused because an evidently inexperianced chinese pilot decided to buzz the inferior craft and missjudged the power of his own plane and clipped our plane, which sadly caused him to loose further control and unfortunatly die. but to blame us is rediculous

just my 2¢

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With just cause in many cases, bashing the United States has become an industry. Our elected leaders, spurred by big business interests or outdated political dogma have, time and again, made stupid decisions and abused the power and prestige of our country.

That being said, I am proud to be a citizen of what I believe to be the greatest country in the community of nations. I consider myself to be a patriot and would willing defend my homeland from "all enemies; foreign or domestic."

I will NOT, however, support the decisions of my elected leaders if I believe them to be wrong. I do not have "America, Love Her or Leave Her" tattooed on any part of my anatomy. Iget so frustrated with our voters and politicians who scream for term limits, drastic policy changes, reworking our Constitution, etc. We already have these abilities. It is called ELECTIONS. Perhaps a flawed process in some regards but better than any alternative of which I am aware. When I disagree with my country's policies, I exercise my rights to effect change.

Now, and I do not mean to offend ANYONE, nor do I wish to curtail the free expression of opinions, I respectfully *R*E*Q*U*E*S*T* than before anyone characterizes the United States as the "Great Satan," they carefully examine their own country's policies, foreign and domestic.

I seem to recall reading somewhere about the person without sin being the appropriate one to cast the first stone.


By the way, why did Rikard start this and then duck out on it. I can picture him sitting at his monitor, laughing his ass off at us. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

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http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...t1lg_opt60.gif - for cut rate prices call 976-BRIS-FOR-LESS {Next time I send some damned fool, I'll go myself...}

I don't know about him, but I am! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...s/biglaugh.gif

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

dont laugh accord, canada is close enough to catch the backlash if it were to come to blows.

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I highly doubt there will be any real conflict my friend. Both sides are just looking for "face savers" now. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

i doubt it myself, but this is what i see. usa is have some economic troubles. if you'll look through our history you'll see that in times of serious economic problems a war has always pulled us out. wwi ended the great depression. the cold ware helped our 1980's recession. the gulf war fixed other economic problems. and the powers that be may see a war , cold or other wise as a solution to the current situation.

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accord, i know your taking some economic's classes right now, so if i'm wrong about something here, or if you have some insight please , do tell

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I'm pretty sure 1/2 of the world will jump on whoever throws the first punch. As far as economic concerns, USA can use China's mass market and production opportunities while China can use the investments and further expand its trades. It is mutually beneficial for both countries to continue the not-so-hostile trade relation rather than engaging in "physical" warfare.

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

Okay, I spend a week in the books reading and studying for a big test and I miss the debate. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

Anyway, first, alot of misinformation has been stated by a lot of people.
For basic reference on the P-3 go look up in jane's web page
http://www.janes.com/
(jane's weapons is an independent firm that collects military data on equipment and missions and backs it up and make's it available to bidders and some for public domain way to go brit's!). Also, go read the history. Lots and lots of history, especially in reconnaissance, surveillance, and espionage. You will find out it ain't all cloak and dagger and that it is more alot of setting at a desk and trying to figure out a puzzle.

First of all, the pilot, Wang, did something that was freaking nutty, and for his mistake he died, and he almost killed 24 more people in the process.
The P-3 is a 4 engine big ass pig that flies slow, and kicks up alot of air around its turboprop (propellers). Wang flew with in 10 FEET of the air craft! Damn it that is stupid. Why? Because of the way the air is pushed out from those four turbo props he ended up getting sucked up into the belly of the P-3. Not only that but he did have a history of previous stunts. This guy pushed the envolope and got burned. Enough said. There ain't no super ray gun we pulled out the side of the P-3 and made him blow up. We don't have a weather machine that can make it seem like he was blown into the sea. It was pilot error.

Now, we have established the fact that it happened in international waters too. International waters is only 12NM, China claims it to be http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2001Apr5.html
almost to the other islands (I could make a snide comment that China is being selfish and wanting to take more water rights than anyone, well except for Lybia). So, the grounds that it happens in China Waters, would also mean that it happened in disputed waters, as if you go by China's standards you would have to let Phillipines and Tawain and Japan (and on and on) have there claim, then you have a big mess, and more trouble.

Electronic warfare has been going on for a long time, and basically, what we do is fly the big spy plane that has equipment that listens in and pics up all kinds of electronic signals and our boys and girls on board the aircraft sort it out and send it off. We don't invade your airspace or waterspace. The other country will often send up two interceptors to come up, look at us, then fly off. Problem is that China's pilot basically screwed up. He got to close, and got himself killed and almost the P-3 crew. It can be compaired to an idiot trying to drive a porche underneath a semi-trailer, and wondering why that wind caused him to wreck when he got in the back draft of it.

Why am I riding the pilot for being and idiot? Because as a Firefighter/EMT-B I have seen TOO MANY FREAKING AVOIDABLE ACCIDENTS THAT HAVE HAPPENED! You are not freaking superman, you maybe able to pull off a stunt once, but when you push the envolope too many times you will get burned, and you might hurt someone else. Personally I don't care if you die, but damnit I don't want to have to tell some lady she is a widow and childless, because you were stupid, and killed someone and there kid too.

And as far as attacking Pres Bush, please give details and back up what you say. You called him a fasciast, would you please explain and prove it. If not your not proving much except that your mad that you didn't get your way, and you will use name-calling to prove your point. I have no love for him either, but I will not attack him unless I have vailid proof, not some rant that makes you sound like a kid who is mad cause he didn't get his way.

Sorry to get on my soap box, but sometimes it has to be told. Everyone should go out and educate themselves on the issue, and read from both sides. I suggest starting with CNN, The Washington Post, London Times, BBC, hell, go to Yahoo and click on the links (amazed me that they had so many diffrent wire services). Make up your own mind and then make a decision. I will say that this may not be capable in some countries as they are censoured from being able to really get the truth out and read and uncensoured news service.

I am damn proud to be the problem and hate of your passion. I am a white american male of english decent with a long line of ass-kicking in my blood. You may bloody me, but the muts of amercia will kick your ass in the long run (just ask Vietnam, they might have got a round but were back with Coca-cola, Cigs, beer, and consumer based society hehe we win http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif ).

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Drink and be merry http://www.tgeweb.com/images/forum/icons/beerchug.gif
Jimbo http://www.tgeweb.com/images/forum/icons/ninja1.gif
"Renegade, Rebel, and Rogue"

hey Slackerboy,
Cool sig, but it wiggs out my computer, I must have to slow a modem or something

LOL! Don't worry my friend, the highest level of economic classes I have taken is level 3 (third year), meaning I am not a economist. I can't afford to take any higher level classes due to the work load of my major (i.e. accounting). http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...les/tongue.gif

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

exellent post. well thought out and technicall info to back it up. i totally agree. i am a bush supporter. at the very least he is much better than the alternative.

john d. sorry about that. does it keep you from reading the post? or just seeing my sig. this is the first complaint i've had about the sig, i've had complaints about other things.

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I am curious to see how your sig will show when I use my dial up at home. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...les/tongue.gif

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

let me know if i need to ditch it. i could also try lowering the number of frames in the image. it will make the animation choppier but may help if it's really causing a problem
i wont discuss the topic of my sig anymore here. want to stay on topic

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Thank you Gray Mage for understanding some of what my husband was trying to say.
Now I will say no more. It seems like it will just get me in trouble.

My father worked for the US government as a diplomat in the 70's and 80's. He worked mainly in South America trying to keep drugs out of our country. Most of the time my sibblings and I had to drive to school in a bullet proof van.

What's my point? The US helps where it can. Maybe in Rwanda there's some reason why we can't go and help. Maybe it's because of the threat of US soldiers getting killed. I don't know why they aren't there. Maybe you're right. Then again, maybe you're wrong. Have you done research on what's happening in Rwanda? If not, how can you make a statement like that? Are you assuming? Now, I'm not saying you are wrong mind you, I'm just curious on how much you know about this.

About president Bush. I personally am a liberal. I think that the elections did not reflect what the American people wanted. But, it's over and I accept the new president and I will support him. I think he's trying to be the Texas Hero here. He needs to listen to all those 'smart' guys he gives nicknames to so they can tell him what to do. Acting tough in a situation like this is not going to help.

That's my 2 cents.

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http://www.angelfire.com/ca/ecrebels/images/gok4.gif

You're not lost if you don't care where you are.

gee, i just slept for one night and this post from 40+ to 100+.. now thats something for me http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

personally, im already tired from reading all of your post and i find alot of your guys have lots of sense and good arguments. (i disagree with some of them but ..). this has become a good debate for all of us and some of us has been a wee bit hurt by the rash based opinions. (RIKARD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif) ... while is does indeed caused problems, im just wanna say that all of us have learned a thing or two in this debate. nothing ventured nothing gained, and there will be no gain without pain.

i agree that while we can argue and argue the whole day and night about imperialism, nationalism and other **ISM's out there, the fact is nothing will changed because this incident is in the top forms of national security for both superpower nations (china and us)... so i dont mind letting this freefall

ps: i havent seen rikard reply to this post yet after the first few, i wonder what hap?


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Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

absurdity, stubborness, and blind that is all i can say

LOL!
Hey dude, how goes the item restoration process?

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

by the way, if it is possible, i would like to discuss this issue with Yorick instead of the none-sense from you people.

Well I haven't Replied yet becoz well
I said what i wanted

I think

But i got more
but i don't wanna start the discussion again

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http://content.communities.msn.co.uk...&ID_Message=66

not bad, not good, just getting back what i already had, thx for asking. now i am undertaking a "pretty risky" item description requested from some dude... ack, this one is hard

OK, I'm coming in at the tail end of all this and just wanted to offer some comments on how this debate was managed. I won't comment on the actual topic as it's gone on for 5 pages and I can't really add any more value to the discussion.

Overall I believe that people feel strongly about this topic. I can appreciate that people are passionate and entitled to their opinion, and that will be on both points of view. There is never going to be a "right or wrong" in these debates, there's no "prize" to be won at the end of it, so you might all want to keep that in mind when you start to feel your control on your temper slipping. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

Flaming is when the debate starts to get personal, with insults thrown at people rather than views, because someone will personalize someone else's opposing point of view. This is NOT acceptable.

Just like in business, try not to take the other person's point of view personally, and you will have a very interesting debate, and will be able to leverage knowledge from each other without necessarily having to agree. Easier said than done, and takes practice, I know. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

When it starts to get heated, just take a deep breath, cool down, remember that YOU as a person are not being attacked, resist the urge to attack the other person, then post your viewpoint. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

Rikard, one last thing - you could've phrased your opener to this topic a bit more tactfully. Calling Bush Jr a moron and a murderer is hardly the way to open a sensible debate and is going to be the one thing in your post that people will focus on and respond to, not the real issues behind what is happening in China today.


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http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/genwalk.gif http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memname.GIF

[This message has been edited by Memnoch (edited 04-08-2001).]

I'm sure you can handle it! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif


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Long live H22A1!!!!!

I totaly agree with memnoch and that is the main reason why i didn't reply anymore

I often argue with my friends about somethings and even though these discussions are very heatend i have never killed any of them (yet)
So thy not to take everything to personal
And don't give people the possiblity to take it personal (eg not you stink dude i think...)

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http://content.communities.msn.co.uk...&ID_Message=66

heh, thx! but this one is really bizzare... ack... i hate to say it, it is so wired it resembles none-sense instead of any AD&D artifact

Really? Why not post the description on the BG2 forum? You got me curious!! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

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Long live H22A1!!!!!

Oh gosh.. Yep. I have one!

Bush (to me atleast) looks weak. kind of like a rookie, but I hope that will change. I did vote for him, but only to get the 'Clinton Era' out. (Gore). http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif
I did LIKE Gore, but liked what Bushs plans were better..

OK, China.. They say we were in their airspace, when infact we were not. They 'claim' a what.. 200mile buffer when the treaty says 25miles.

Anyway, the chinese plane clipped the American plane. This US plane is SLOW, and those two chinese jets were fast, who can get out of the way faster? (Just one thing that makes be believe that it was not the US's fault)

I KNOW why the US won't apologize. They have spy satellite Intel of this..
(My guess)

If the US isn't VERY careful though, this could get out of hand quickly. China has one of the largest Milatary on the planet. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...smiles/eek.gif

Just some thoughts.. ??

Ziroc

alright, let me be little objective

first of all, no country in the world likes to be spied. US spied china, because US had long ago treated China as potential threat instead of thinking the possible cooperation. the "coincidence" is, in fact, unavoidable due to american foreigne policy. if the planes dont crash, soemthing else will happen.

second, you spy other country, invaded their air (dont claim you didnt because you were SPYING). intruded other nation's land property right. alright, lets not talk about about if you did it right or wrong. but you killed one of other's pilot, crashed their plane, AND landed in their land WITHOUT permission.
and even worse yet, you played a face of being the boss, DEMANDING china to return american men immediately, AND not investigate the spyplane. read it, do those make sense to you?

investigating spyplane had been a long tradition. 1976, a russian fighter plane escaped USSR, and landed in Japan. dispite USSR's strong demand of "returning the plane immediately" US and Japanese formed a 100 scientists investigation group and basically pieced everything on that russian fighterplane. the plane was returned 76 days later after it was RE-MODELED

return the american soldiers and plane dont make sense at all, while, I personally hope these people can go home and reunion with their family. but NOT before US apologize for what they did!

From a diplomatic point of view, this issue has moved past who was originally at fault and is now at who can save the most face. And the poor US servicemen are caught in the middle (as was the Chinese pilot that lost his life).

This is now about China's national pride and their determination to show their citizens that they won't be pushed around in their own backyard, irrespective of who was at fault.

This is also about the Bush Administration's drawing their line in the sand and their desire to make sure that China know that the US is a superpower and that China isn't one (yet).

There's a third consideration - China's 1.3 billion people are a huge market for US multinationals so the tone against China has been a lot more respectful than the tone against, say Russia, when the US caught Robert Hanssen spying and kicked out 50 Russian diplomats.

Very interesting and potentially dangerous times ahead.

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lets say, i dont want to spoil it... hehehehehehe, you can dl it when it is done though, some really good editor is making this item

I don't know about that. If we went to war with China, you can expect Russia to join China. Others that would usually back the US MAY not--knowing what type of alliance they would be up against. ? Just guessing..


Ziroc

Cool.

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Long live H22A1!!!!!