As I said, I began reading Jedi Academy books -- which came highly recommended. It is true that the goofiness I'm thinking of actually occurred in the prior books (which I haven't read), and I'll give Anderson the benefit of the doubt -- he may just be having a hard time summarizing and working with Zahn's stuff. Still, Luke as a Sith has be confuzzled.

That was a comic storyline, Timber...Palpatine's clone turned him to the dark side, blah blah blah...not gonna say much 'bout it ;)

Dark Empire, Dark Empire II, and Empire's End for reference :D

::wipes tear from eye::

You guys make me proud!

But see that's just it, he DID fulfill the prophesy, there is now balance in the Force, 2 Jedi, and 2 Sith, rather than scads of Jedi and virtually no Sith. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I think the balance is restored in RotJ, when Vader kills Palpatine.

Dark Empire is the biggest bullshit Star Wars Storyline in all the dark alley of the dreaded EU... Was Dark Empire 2 the one where "Palpatines son" the F%$&$$% cyclop is in?... geez I hated those 2 so much. I read them when I was a member of theForce.net forums and got into such argument with other members about the EU that we almost came to blows... (if we hadn't been on seperate hemisphere ofcourse... [img]smile.gif[/img] ) But it's the closest thing I have been to getting banned on a forum board... [img]smile.gif[/img]

But in short I hate most of the EU, specially when it takes the canon from the movies and rapes it... and like Timber mentioned, written for children aged 7-9 with IQs of 2-4.
Only ones I enjoyed reading was the Thrawn Trilogy and the Shadows of the Empire novell

[ 05-29-2005, 04:21 AM: Message edited by: Jorath Calar ]

It's weird...I've read them too, and the summary in Star Wars: The Essential Chronology is clearer and better written.

Oh, THAT's the best idea for people who want to know what happens in the EU...read The Essential Chronology. It works wonders toward catching you up, and also helps direct you toward the books you would like more.

Hm.. gotta admit, I found the plot a bit weak.

(spoilers)

Palpatine: I'm evil, I admit it.
Anakin: It cannot be, I shall warn the Jedi.

Later
Palpatine: (shooting force-lightning at Windu) UNLIMITED POWER! Mwhahaha
Ahem.. the jedi are evil. They seek to overthrow democracy.
Anakin: of course, how come I didn't see this earlier? Let's commit genocide.

Palpatine: (*before the senate*) L'etat, c'est moi. And as of today, you're all my galactic b*tches. Har har har.
Senate: hurrah! Democracy was getting old anyway.

Yoda: (*fails to eliminate Palpatine*) when at first you don't succeed, flee to the other side of the galaxy and let the big bad consolidate his power.

I got questions. YAY! :D

Why did Sidius choose to rescue Anakin? He said something about " I sense Vader is in a grave danger ". However he didn't go and rescue Darth Maul or Count Dooku? Is it because of this choose one thing?

Another thing, In Episode 2 when the bounty hunter fire his flamethrower at Mace Windu and caused him to fall down. He is able to land on his feet safely down at the arena. In episode 3 he doesn't seem to be able to do so after Sidius fired his lightning at him? Why ?

Also, How come Darth Vader couldn't perform the lightning attack? Same as Darth Maul? But Sidius and Count Dooku is able to do that?

Also how come Yoda seem to struggle to fight with Sidius but Mace Windu nearly defeat him if it wasn't for Anakin intervention? Is Mace Windu is stronger than Yoda?

How come none of the Jedi sense or detect that Palpatine is Darth Sidius?

Annoying? I stop now. :D

I think Windu is the combat master for a reason. Yoda focuses less on combat, and more on the all-around. Mace was more combat oriented, and especially to do with ye olde lightsaber. He is not stronger, just more skilled in one area, perhaps.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=plum>I also think that Sidius wasn't fightin Windu with his full effort. He wanted Anakin to think Windu was about to defeat him so that Anakin would intervene and take one step closer to the Dark Side. Once Windu dropped his guard for a moment, Sidius had a remarkably sudden surge of power to blast him out the window. I believe it was yet another way in which Sidius manipulated Anakin to choose the Dark Side.

Now I have a question of my own.

WHY are there only 2 Siths at any one time - the master and the apprentice?

I've not read any of the books, so I don't understand why there is a limit on the number of Siths that can exist at one time.</font>

yeah, that's what I thought when it happened.

I don't think that only two Sith can exist at once I think it's just that the rank of sith is like a presidant or something, as in it is unique in power, and if there were many of them, there would be a power struggle and what not.

<font color=plum>In Episode I, after Darth Maul is killed, the Jedi Council is discussing the return of the Siths. I believe Yoda is the one that says something to the effect that there are always 2 Sith and then the Council wonders if they killed they killed the master or the apprentice. Then we get a cut-away scene to Palpatine in his hooded cloak, and it is the first confirmation we are given that HE is the Sith Master that eventually becomes the Emporer.

Anyway, maybe Yoda meant that you always find 2 Sith together instead of Sith being restricted to only two existing at a time, but that was sort of the implication I got from that line.</font>

If one reads the StarWars database on the official site, one can learn that there was a Sith master called Darth Bane that emerged from the inevitable chaos of Sith destroying each other. He saw the chaos inherent in his dark ways, and sought ways to control this. The answer: only two fully trained sith, a master, and an apprentice. Where the apprentice eventually kills the master and become the new one, bar some occasions where the apprentice is killed before that.

On the Yoda-Windu thing. Yoda and Windu are officially known to be of about the same power. Only Windu is a Jedi Guardian to speak in DnD terms, and Yoda a Consular, this means Windu focuses on lightsaber combat (his pwoerful skill called Vaapad), and Yoda focuses on the Force. This is why Yoda has such an easy time jumping around, deflecting huge objects and absorbing lightning.

As a last comment, I found Sidious to be the struggling one, he just cheated by having Yoda fall down. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

He probably would not have defeated Windu either, since his lightsaber skills are not that great.

Very good, JrKASperov!! Everything he mentioned in the last post was quite sound.
I would say that Palp's lightsaber skills are quite good, but maybe not up to Master Windu's. Also, yes, Palp's did still have power at the end, but that does not mean Mace could not have killed him. I think he let off his attack because he was getting fried as well, from the proximity. I think he was tru;y fighting before Anakin arrived, and then began his ploy when got there.

IIRC Nubian is a ship manufacturer. They make all the shiney sleek ones (the one's Padme is always flying around in). I expect they're the 'Mercades' of starship manufacturers.

I loved all the little details in the movie, like how the clones were looking like stormtroopers towards the end of the movie, and how the empire's fighters were looking more and more like tie fighters.

And their use of music was excellent, subtle and not so subltle insertion of music from ANH.

IMO Sidius was pulling punches with Windu, but not with Yoda. I also agree that it looked like Windu really WAS better with a light sabre than Sidius, but I doubt he could have defeated him if Sidius had really been fighting.

Not a perfect movie, the script had numberous weak points, primarily around improbable behavior by Ani ("WAIT... you're EVIL? I NEVER would have guessed, even though you've been talking about the dark side since 5 minutes into the movie.").

[ 06-01-2005, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

My question is if they can gun down almost the entirety of the Jedi with little effort and only a hint of surprise, why can't they hit anything other than Jawas and a sandcrawler by ANH.

A gene pool so deep you'd crack your skull if you dove in tends to help heroes.

My question is if they can gun down almost the entirety of the Jedi with little effort and only a hint of surprise, why can't they hit anything other than Jawas and a sandcrawler by ANH. </font>[/QUOTE]I think Lucas rushed that segment... it was what... 2 minute long and basically showed the Jedi getting wiped out with barely a fight, even the Jedi master (the cone head dude) was taken out by just a couple clones, improbable given how uber powerful Master level Jedi characters are in the SW games and other films. I know my Jedi Guardian character would have no problem at all defeating almost any number of clones (maybe including some strategic running away and such ;) ). Instead of a 10 second shot of a Jedi getting shot in the back by 4 clones, I think a better fit would have been to spend more time showing the Jedi inflicting the massive casualties I'd expect them to but succombing eventually to massive numerical advantage and relentless pursuit.

When I think of Jedi Masters, I think of them doing things like Obi did when he hopped down into the middle of the Seperatist forces with General Grevious standing right there. Not only was that just about the coolest scene in the movie, it was pretty much how I played my Jedi when I got that powerful because you could walk into just about any situtation and know you were perfectly capable of kicking some serious ass. Since all the games are Lucas approved, I assume that was the way HE envisioned the Jedi, soo powerful they simply didn't worry about things like clones... then to see him crap out on that scene and show Jedi being bushwhacked and killed with BLASTERS... it was insulting!

In ANH, it is stated by Obi-Wan that Vader helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi. I was really hoping for some of that in Episode III. Really all he did was kill some kids and help the emperor defeat Mace. That's not really what he was originally built up for. Probably bad time management overall for the series by Lucas.

I saw this recently... and I hated it (and i'm a og Star Wars fan who went into this movie desperately wanting to like it). There were plot holes throughout it, bad acting, atrocious dialogue, and probably the best special effects of any movie to date which is never enough to make up for a bad story.

Well your above synopsis could be used for EVERY Star Wars :D (I love em but they all have cheezy acting and scripts, plot holes, and great effects)... so what was different about this one? Was it TOO MUCH bad acting, TOO HORRIBLE a script, etc...?

Yes.. to much bad of everything, the plot holes were ridiculous at times and the storyline, such as it was, served only as a frame for the effects.

The first Star Wars movie still stands up to critical perspective with only Mark Hamill on the cusp of the bad acting bug.

Well, thhbbbt on you Djinn. No soup for you!

Anyway, pray tell about all these plot holes. I've seen precious few, but could name a couple of select ones. Several plot holes identified on imdb are actually incorrect, btw.

I will admit the second time I saw it, I groaned a bit -- especially at lines like "No, it's because I'm SO IN LOVE with YOU." [img]graemlins/repuke.gif[/img]

Mace Windu going to fight Palpatine with 3 jedi Padawans (If they were padawans, i'm guessing they were they all died like bizotches). It's like Windu should have been all 'Damn yo, our enemy is Palpatine, Sith lord and the most dangerous foe we've ever had. So i'm gonna take 3 of our most useless jedi and go get medieval on his ass.' That confrontation should have happened with 20 jedi, not one capable one and 3 others who would have worn the throwaway red security uniform had they been in original Star Trek.

The Republic with Palpatine as Emperor and the Senate as a democracy. There was no difference between them as far as I could see. What was the difference, the trains didn't run on time anymore? Why was anyone even fighting? Palpatine declares himself Emperor and everyone claps except for Organa and Padme.. the political aspects of this are not touched upon at all and could probably fill several chapters in their own right, but in this one it just never felt like there was any urgency to the political side, didn't Padme or Organa or the Jedi talk to any of those thousands of other senators? They could have set up a lobby group or PR company to get the word out.

Yoda going to the Wookie planet. Why did he have to go there and what purpose did it serve? It served no purpose at all and made no sense. Oh no that's right.. it was because Yoda had good relations with the Wookies. Good relations, that makes perfect sense, Yoda, apparently the most powerful jedi is going to leave the capital and the counsel in their most dire hour because he has good relations with the Wookies.

Travel time. Yoda leaves Coruscant, goes to Kasheek, returns to Coruscant. Obi Wan leaves Coruscant, goes to whatever world he fought Grievous on, returns to Coruscant, goes to Lavaworld. In the original trilogy it seemed to take days for them to travel anywhere in hyperspace, time enough for a game of holo chess. In this movie it seems like no time at all has passed during Yoda's travels off Coruscant and back.

During the fight with Dooku, Obi Wan has his legs seemingly crushed by a massive slab of metal that looked to me like it weighed in the tonnes. It should have pulverized his legs. When he wakes up, carried off by Anakin (I can't even remember how Anakin got him out from under it) Obi Wan is running around like Carl Lewis.. wtf!? The force is strong in this one..'s legs.

These new Star Wars movies represent the death of the idealism of my childhood.

Yeah, the ledge part was pretty weak and the acting was brutal in spots, but overall I don't think it was that bad. I mean, really, it could have been much worse. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Or as I said to a friend during the film, "Yoda is just a wookie who failed to hit puberty." It would explain how he has such good relations with the wookies :D

Well, Djinn, I wasn't bothered by hardly any of those that bothered you. I think most of them are not plot holes. The jedi with Mace were not padawans I don't think. The Republic's corruption is of course why Palpatine's takeover was possible to engineer. As for a political group "getting the word out" about possible governmental takeover and bad wars -- ask Moveon.org how easy it is to do that. On the wookie planet -- why would Yoda not go? He is no less likely to go lead forces than any other member of the council. Does a plot even have to be necessitated, doesn't life just happen randomly sometimes? Nothing says they didn't spend days in hyperspace, seems an assumption you've made. Oh, and the piece the fell on Obi -- well, I took it to have enough room for him under it. I've seen that shot several times -- it's a cutscene in the video game -- and the structure that falls is a floor sitting on support beams.

Now, waking up in the elevator shaft was a bit hokey, I admit.

For me, I shuddered at "No, it's because I'M SO in LOVE with YOU."

Now I liked almost every star wars, and since I'm a geek I was definitely into the special effects... but I gotta say one thing:

Peter Jackson's Gollum was a thousand light years better than Yoda. Just watched RotK again last night... and I'm still BLOWN AWAY by how realistic they made that character, Yoda looks like... well... a bad x-box character in comparison. ;)

Well, you had to expect that, Thoran... LotR won how many oscars? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

While I think Dron-Cah answered your questions okay, I'd like the chance to address them.

Sidious believes in the prophecy that Anakin is the strongest and wants to harness his power. He references Anakin, not himself, when he tells Yoda which Jedi will be the most powerful in the galaxy. If you don't get the notion he's the strongest from RotS from his smarmy ways with Obi, then maybe playing the video game would make it clearer. He knows he out-performs Obi, and he knows he's powerful. He's whiny and immature too -- the fatal flaws.

Quote:

Another thing, In Episode 2 when the bounty hunter fire his flamethrower at Mace Windu and caused him to fall down. He is able to land on his feet safely down at the arena. In episode 3 he doesn't seem to be able to do so after Sidius fired his lightning at him? Why ?

Well, he'd been zapped to heck and back, which has through all the movies decreased the victim's ability to perform (even with Sidious at the end of RotJ). As well, as Dron Cah said, we are dealing with thousands of feet (plus additional lightning), not a hundred.
[

Quote:

Also, How come Darth Vader couldn't perform the lightning attack? Same as Darth Maul? But Sidius and Count Dooku is able to do that?

According to the video game, Vader CAN. Ani's force stun ability switces to force lightning mid-game. I think he prefers choke-a-bitch instead. NOTE that a lightsaber can BLOCk the force lightning, as seen with Mace when Palps is electrifying his bad self, and as seen with any character in the video games.

Quote:

Also how come Yoda seem to struggle to fight with Sidius but Mace Windu nearly defeat him if it wasn't for Anakin intervention? Is Mace Windu is stronger than Yoda?

I don't know for sure that Palps was Toying with Mace, as some suggest, maybe... maybe not. Regardless, Yoda was doing well vs. Sidious, but found himself disadvantaged by the appearance of the clone army to save Palps. Otherwise, he may have retrieved his little green phallic rod and continued the fight. With impending clone troopers coming into the Senate chamber, though, he knew that particular fight was finished.

Quote:

How come none of the Jedi sense or detect that Palpatine is Darth Sidius?

In ALL the movies, a Jedi can only sense the presences he knows to look for. Darth Vader cannot sense Luke until he first sees that little kid with Obi on the Death Star -- and the Emporer still can't sense him, for he hasn't seen him. Vader gets better and better at sensing Luke through Eps V and VI. Even in his throne room, Palps cannot sense Luke when Vader (who had encountered him twice) can -- "I have FELT him" .... "Strange that I have not." The same appears to be true for Leia -- only after searching Luke's mind and learning of her existence can Vader and Sidious attempt to plan for her existence.

Quote:

Annoying? I stop now. :D

No! Not at all annoying! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[ 06-09-2005, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

yea... but with CG you expect newer movies to raise the bar. The newest Star Wars is what... a year and a half newer than RotK, I guess I expected something new.

I think Lucas went for quantity over quality, and PJ focused on quality. Not that there weren't a TON of CG shots in the LotR trilogy, but EP3 was wall to wall CG... and maybe that meant he didn't have the time or budget to do REALLY high quality CG (like a Gollum level character)

Ep. I, the hated Jar-Jar movie, had more CG screens than had ever been done before -- topped off with the Droids vs. Gungans crap at the end that everyone hated. Ep. II had hundreds of jedi w/ lightsabers on the screen at once, fighting in concert, which had never been done before. The battle for Geonosis was another landmark. Ep. III took it to the next level, with all the clone and droid CGI. In the meantime, programs like MASSIVE (used in the LOTR movies) had also come onto the scene for man-on-man combat -- and they were a better product. HOWEVER, the scene above Coruscant (with its thin atmosphere) were the first time a space battle of that magnitude had been shown -- and it was shown WELL.

Also, don't forget that, while it looked to be too heavy and obvious on the CGI, the battle on Mustafar was filmed over an eruption of Mt. Etna. This was another landmark -- and perhaps Lucas & Co. over-reached on this one. But, at least he's pushing the bounds of new technology.

I gotta opine that Yoda was not only better, he was less annoying. Those gollum scenes at the end of TTT, complete with his schizo moments, annoy me no matter how often I watch them on the EE DVD. Don't get me wrong -- I LOVE the LOTR movies, but gollum can't stand up a bit to Yoda's bizzatch-ness. ;)

Well I was just considering the CG quality itself, and watching the virtually infinite (and realistic) range of expression in gollums face is pretty darn impressive. The only think that wasn't quite right was his hair, it didn't QUITE move realistically... close... but not quite there. Yoda had FAR less range of expression (or at least the performance did) and what was there was about as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face... and while he had hair... it didn't move at all or moved very little (safe way to go).

Character wise I think both Gollum and Yoda had their cheeze moments. With Yoda I have to agree with one of the reviews I read, his annoyance is in the tortured dialog... "a prophecy that misread might have been". I know that's how Yoda is supposed to be but DAMN! Gollum's character isn't particularly likeable, while EVERYONE loves Yoda. There certainly (IMO) is a lot more to Gollum as a character than Yoda. Yoda is the prototypical hero/mentor. He fits the definition of the good guy perfectly. Gollum is the bad guy but his character doesn't quite fit that mold, Tolkien did a good job of sticking with the Epic Fantasy form and yet making his characters a bit deeper than the standard pure good/pure evil formula.

BTW, regarding Yoda-speak, a friend of mine who is not really a SW fan saw the movie, liked it, and had this to say about Yoda: he puts the important words of the sentence up front, and throws the less important words to the end.

I agree Gollum was more complex -- he was schizo, after all, and was at least 2 people. As for subtle, it is gollum's lack of subtlety and cartooniness that drove me crazy -- especially since it was so out of place in the LOTR world.

good point... now I've got to rewatch all the yoda scenes.

I thought he just flipped what we would normally put first, last. Talk like this, he must. (he must talk like this.) You get the idea. ;)

No, get it, I do not.

Did you know that they were thinking of making some New Republic movies? Except that they arnt going to be made by Lucas, theyre going to be made by Fox.That sucks monkey!

I'm sure we can be assured that Star Wars products will be made by LucasFilm once Lucas steps off the helm.