Ironworks Gaming Forum - What a boring game!!!!!!!!

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- - What a boring game!!!!!!!! (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34023)

Neb	07-07-2002 10:16 PM

If someone makes such a petition I'll be there to sign it [img]smile.gif[/img]

Memnoch

07-07-2002 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV:

However, I am curious to know if you or anyone else who is trying to defend this game's combat/party style would rather keep the current version of the game, or would rather play my version of the game? Remember let's try and be honest here.

My version:
Everything is the same except for; the Gypsy stereotypes, the dull/characterless male voices, the goofy looking male portraits (mostly), the silly screaming voices in the background (even after you have killed all the bad guys in that area), the one henchperson rule and DESIGN (YUCK), maybe a few aspects of the combat style, and much much more.

Now you're going to tell me that you would rather have the current version?!?!....I know it's tough, but be honest now.

I think the problem might be that NWN is primarily trying to be a roleplaying game, with emphasis on Multiplayer - with PnP D&D you can only really control one character, rather than BG2 or IWD which is more of a tactical RPG which allows you to control more than one person. The scripting for the henchman might not be perfect, but the intention is pretty clear - he's not under your control.

Not saying this is better or worse - it's horses for courses obviously, but I don't think the intention was to have the henchman as a "second" character for you to control.

Just like when you play multi - you need to communicate with others in your group on strategies, etc. The difference is that in multi you are communicating with sentient beings on the other end. ;)

Hopefully they can get the scripting improved so that what you tell him will more accurately reflect what commands are given to him. [img]smile.gif[/img]

theifprowess

07-07-2002 10:46 PM

the child thing was an example. sorry i used it but we post our opinions here and like i said before this thread wasnt based on racists views or what not but the boredom of the game. if you want to do an off topic post go ahead and start a new thread.no one waqnted to replied to that one.

does anyone want to talk aboput them lakers to. i hear they got a really good chance to go for 4 in a row.

theifprowess

07-07-2002 10:49 PM

i think next years biggest rival to shaq is gonna be that boy from china that the rockets got. all hes goota do is gain another 50 pounds and he will be able to handle shaq. he will then be taller faster and bigger.
but can he shoot freethrows? how is he with his layups?

will MJ get a better team to work with next season?will they finally give phil jackson the credit he deservers?

would anyone like to post their thoughts on this.

Megabot

07-07-2002 11:04 PM

Quote:

megabot post originally that he played the game and was bored because it wasnt interesting to him.fine he doesnt like the game cause its not up to par to what he likes to play.fine ok he doesnt like it cause its not up to his speed.its slow its boring to him.

now come out saying i hope the gypsies dont sue for racist stereotyping has nothing to do with this thread.

lets get back onto the threads original topic already

I dont say i dont like the game because of the speed or something here and the game run like an "bigblock Chevy" here i have gf 3 with 128 mb ram and i use win xp and i have one gig ram so the game is fast here!
And that stupid interface in the game annoying me to!
I have played it again now an i have come to an city or something with tons of Weak Zombies to kill and the combat thingie are also a little bad i think, but anyway the game still sucks so i dont play it more now before i have finnished Morrowind that game is 10 000000 times better anyway i think and even Baldurs Gate 1 is better!

But dont make Mem to close this topic because that was not what i had in mind to start this post anyway, so cool it down you guys it is only a ■■■■■■■ game we talking about here! :D

theifprowess

07-07-2002 11:08 PM

youre also given 36 quick commands to work with i have 12 set asside to command my henchman. its fast control and you dont have to talk to them.but said earlier this was ment to be a multiplayer game and between load screens its states that the games difficulty was based on you and 1 henchman not 5. the game is also based on 3rd edition rules, but then we have beat that one over plenty of times. maybe people arent reading it. instead of getting upset with how the game is played out get upset at the rules that original d&d creators have set. bioware is just staying current with the ad&d rules.if you dont agree with it fine we all have our opinions and your intitled to them. play it if you wantor dont its your desision. but to try it under a whole new set of rules and restrictions is what makes this game so new and unique.

when i first got this game i did not like it you can probablly find the post where i even said that. i didnt like the camera views. i didnt like the char setup either. but i gave the game more than an hour of play time and i started enjoying it.it was something new to work with you had to earn your way up in the game.thats what i liked about the game.new and challenging.

i just am misguided that someone would get such high expectations for a game and then shoot it down because of miniscule flaws. i can say that their where far more char portraits here then in BG2. and i hear people say that there isnt. voices sound just as gay as the original BG series so i could careless.im just thrilled that for each voice there is a different script for each. then the henchman, people cant be that reliant on 5 extra char to help you out.i hear alot about there not being certain char kits in here, maybe they where to powerful or something and they wanted to balance the game out.

the only gripe i have about the game now is the online play. for those of us who want to play the game and enjoy it. the experience is ruined by people who cheat.what is the point of playing the game if your just going to cheat?

Sir Heinrich Godfrie IV

07-07-2002 11:20 PM

Quote:

Posted By: thiefprowess
i think next years biggest rival to shaq is gonna be that boy from china that the rockets got. all hes goota do is gain another 50 pounds and he will be able to handle shaq. he will then be taller faster and bigger.
but can he shoot freethrows? how is he with his layups?

will MJ get a better team to work with next season?will they finally give phil jackson the credit he deservers?

Please, PLEASE, do not get me started on the Minneapo... I mean LA Lakers. I hold a lot of disgust for that team (mainly jealiousy).

theifprowess

07-07-2002 11:20 PM

lol

Yorick

07-08-2002 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theifprowess:
rogue Pronunciation Key (rg)
n.
An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.
One who is playfully mischievous; a scamp.
A wandering beggar; a vagrant.
A vicious and solitary animal, especially an elephant that has separated itself from its herd.
An organism, especially a plant, that shows an undesirable variation from a standard.

adj.
Vicious and solitary. Used of an animal, especially an elephant.
Large, destructive, and anomalous or unpredictable: a rogue wave; a rogue tornado.
Operating outside normal or desirable controls: “How could a single rogue trader bring down an otherwise profitable and well-regarded institution?” (Saul Hansell).

Gyp·sy also Gip·sy Pronunciation Key (jps)
n. pl. Gyp·sies
A member of a people that arrived in Europe in migrations from northern India around the 14th century, now also living in North America and Australia. Many Gypsy groups have preserved elements of their traditional culture, including an itinerant existence and the Romany language.
See Romany.
gypsy One inclined to a nomadic, unconventional way of life.
A person who moves from place to place as required for employment, especially:
A part-time or temporary member of a college faculty.
A member of the chorus line in a theater production.

odd they both have different definitions not all meaning the same thing.

Your definitions support what I'm saying. Are you reading the same language I am? The secondary meanings are dependent on the initial meaning.

Your arguments are flimsey at best regarding the "white Gypsie bit". The people closest in circumstance are the Jews. Like the Gypsies, they had no homeland, were persecuted and killed by the Nazis (in a Gypsie holocaust), and lived all over Europe.

Just as you could have a Hungarian Jew, or a Russian Jew, so could you have a Spanish Gypsie or French Gypsie for example.

I believe the famous guitarist Django Reinhardt was a Gypsie.

Thiefprowess, you need to get a grip mate. Your statements regarding religion are as said way out of line and totally uncalled for.

As for taking the thread offtopic, that is the flow of human conversation. That was one element that got picked up on. By bringing up that it seems like you're determined to try and prove me wrong about anything instead of chilling out. What do you care? To you it's a game. To a Gypsie it's who they are.

As for what nationality I am, I'm Australian. An Australian with a hatred of racism. Quite a normal kind of hatred in Australia. ;)
Ironically in my Anglo-Celtic family, one distant ancestor was allegedly a Gypsie from Spain. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'd forgotten about that actually.

Thanks to you guys that expressed support. [img]smile.gif[/img] Maybe we could get a petition going to get them to change it before a lawyer gets involved. (Bad news) A simple patch would do it right?

theifprowess

07-08-2002 01:00 AM

im out of this topic i am tired of argueing with yorick its neither yen or yang with him so as far as i am concerned take complaining over to general discussion. please

theifprowess

07-08-2002 01:03 AM

memnoch or ziroc i would ask that this thread be closed just to keep arguements like this from happening.

Yorick

07-08-2002 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theifprowess:
memnoch or ziroc i would ask that this thread be closed just to keep arguements like this from happening.

That's called being a sore loser thiefnoprowess.

Besides, I wasn't having an argument. :D

Megabot

07-08-2002 01:58 AM

Or maby i kill the whole thing if you cannot behave here! ;(

Yorick

07-08-2002 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Megabot:
Or maby i kill the whole thing if you cannot behave here! ;(

Don't be doing that Megabot.

Megabot

07-08-2002 02:22 AM

Quote:

Don't be doing that Megabot

Maby not but PLEASE guys let us be friend`s here we are all gamers that like RPG`s so please don`t trow any shit around here!!

Yorick

07-08-2002 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Megabot:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Don't be doing that Megabot

Maby not but PLEASE guys let us be friend`s here we are all gamers that like RPG`s so please don`t trow any shit around here!![/QUOTE]I agree.

Fionnguala MacMorna

07-08-2002 02:26 AM

I see your definitions for gypsies, Yorick. I get my information from having a M.A. in Anthropology. The only justification I can give you without writing a huge off-topic post on a gaming forum is that Romany does not equal Gypsy in the same way that Eskimo no longer equals native Greenlander. I guess that if people choose the politically correct "cry wolf" with this game's class description, then so be it. It would be a shame to see Black Isle get sued over something like this.

Yorick

07-08-2002 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fionnguala MacMorna:
I see your definitions for gypsies, Yorick. I get my information from having a M.A. in Anthropology. The only justification I can give you without writing a huge off-topic post on a gaming forum is that Romany does not equal Gypsy in the same way that Eskimo no longer equals native Greenlander. I guess that if people choose the politically correct "cry wolf" with this game's class description, then so be it. It would be a shame to see Black Isle get sued over something like this.

Fionnguala I studied Anthropology and Sociology for a while too.

I'm sorry but you are wrong, on both counts. Eskimos were never merely confined to Greenland, but stretched across modern day Canada and Alaska. An Eskimo can be a native Greenlander, or not, and a native Greenlander can be an eskimo or not.

I have quoted articles proving that Gypsies are a RACE, that their language is Romany. They have been choosing to call themselves Romanies of late, hence perhaps your confusion.

They are well documented in history and the arts. I mentioned Django - to this day a guitaring Icon - was a Gypsie. I don't see how you could proclaim Gypsies are not a race as you earlier asserted, especially with your claim of Anthrop Masters.
Perhaps you speciality wasn't Gypsies? ;)

Regardless, presenting a degree instead of facts holds little water I'm afraid. ;) I'm supposed to just sit down and take your word against the mountain of evidence I have seen to the contrary?

I suppose to you the Gypsie genocide at the hands of the Nazis was fiction? You're German are you not? Has this fact been covered up in your country then?

theifprowess

07-08-2002 03:00 AM

im not a sore loser i just tire from argueing with you about a topic that shoukdnt be

Yorick

07-08-2002 03:09 AM

Fionnguala,try this site: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm

Quote:

Welcome to Patrin, dedicated to Romani (Gypsy) culture and history and to extending awareness of the continuous Roma struggle to achieve and maintain dignity and freedom. Patrin is a learning resource and information centre about Romani culture, social issues, and current events. To Roma the world over, we send the message: we will remember!

The Roma remain the most persecuted minority in Europe. Innocent children, mothers and fathers are brutally attacked and murdered and there is little action from the authorities to apprehend and prosecute the racist culprits responsible for these senseless acts. The authorities themselves are often responsible for singling out Roma by withholding rightful citizenship, asylum from persecution, right to travel, social services and due process of the law. Imprisonment and deportation are the only official actions of many governments.

The reasons given by European governments lack clear thought or even-handed justice. The German government claims it reduces racial violence by removing Roma from their country. And what happens to the people responsible for committing violence against Roma and other minorities? Other governments claim that Roma are responsible for much petty crime, but have they attempted to remove obstacles that prevent unemployment among the Roma, reducing crime at the same time? Racist organisations demonstrate their messages of hate openly directed at Roma with little or no restrictions, yet Roma have little if any active decision-making roles in policies directly affecting their own future.

Governments have attempted to forcibly settle and resettle Roma, often with little success and negative results. These same governments have also refused Roma the opportunity to settle down of their own accord. When a new Roma encampment begins, they are forcibly removed. Reasons include safety, hygiene, and reducing crime, but there is feeble effort by the authorities in power to improve these settlements.

The Roma remain a people on the margins of society, prevented from self-determination and gaining official recognition as a minority entitled to basic humanitarian services and rights.

The Romani people remain misunderstood and socially isolated in Europe for many reasons. Roma have mistrusted help or aid from outsiders, and with justification. For centuries they have maintained a social distance from gadje and remained separate as a matter of choice for protection and cultural strength. The days of voluntary isolationism are nearing their end in Europe. There remain very few places where Roma can have peace. Overcrowding, ethnic conflicts and strictly enforced borders within Europe force Roma closer and closer to gadje, and the situation will not change soon.

Governments have been slow to action because of the lack of a single strong united Roma voice. If outside help is accepted Roma concerns and resolve must be forcefully communicated. The World Romani Congresses and the First Gypsy Congress of the European Union are major steps in the right direction.

[ 07-08-2002, 03:22 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Yorick

07-08-2002 03:12 AM

Origins of the Romani People
by Ian Hancock

Quote:

The Roma have been made up of many different groups of people from the very beginning, and have absorbed outsiders throughout their history. Because they arrived in Europe from the East, they were thought by the first Europeans to be from Turkey or Nubia or Egypt, or any number of vaguely acknowledged non-European places, and they were called, among other things, Egyptians or ‘Gyptians, which is where the word "Gypsy" comes from. In some places, this Egyptian identity was taken entirely seriously, and was no doubt borrowed by the early Roma themselves. In the 15th century, James the Fifth of Scotland concluded a treaty with a local Romani leader pledging the support of his armies to help recover "Little Egypt" (an old name for Epirus, on the Greek-Albanian coast) for them.

It was not until the second half of the 18th century that scholars in Europe began to realize that the Romani language, in fact, came from India. Basic words, such as some numerals and kinship terms, and names for body parts, actions, and so on, were demonstrably Indian.■ So—they concluded—if the language were originally Indian, its speakers very likely must be as well. Once they realized this, their next questions were the obvious ones: if Roma were indeed from India, when did they leave, and why, and are there still Roma in that country?

At the very beginning of the 11th century, India came under attack by the Muslim general Mahmud of Ghazni, who was trying to push Islam eastwards into India, which was mainly Hindu territory. The Indian rulers had been assembling troops to hold back the Muslim army for several centuries already, deliberately drawing their warriors from various populations who were not Aryan. The Aryans had moved into India many centuries before, and had pushed the original population down into the south, or else had absorbed them into the lowest strata of their own society, which began to separate into different social levels or castes, called varnas ("colors") in Sanskrit.■

The Aryans regarded Aryan life as being more precious than non-Aryan life, and would not risk losing it in battle. So the troops that were assembled to fight the armies of Mahmud of Ghazni were all taken from non-Aryan populations, and made honorary members of the Kshattriya, or warrior caste, and allowed to wear their battledress and emblems.■

They were taken from many different ethnic groups who spoke many different languages and dialects. Some were Lohars and Gujjars, some were Tandas, some were Rajputs, non-Indian peoples who had come to live in India some centuries before, and some may also have been Siddhis, Africans from the East African coast who fought as mercenaries for both the Hindus and the Muslims. This composite army moved out of India through the mountain passes and west into Persia, battling with Muslim forces all along the eastern limit of Islam. While this is to an extent speculative, it is based upon sound linguistic and historical evidence, and provides the best-supported scenario to date. Because Islam was not only making inroads into India to the east, but was also being spread westwards into Europe, this conflict carried the Indian troops—the early Roma—further and further in that direction, until they eventually crossed over into southeastern Europe about the year 1300.

From the very beginning, then, the Romani population has been made up of various different peoples who have come together for different reasons. As the ethnically and linguistically mixed occupational population from India moved further and further away from its land of origin (beginning in the 11th century), so it began to acquire its own ethnic identity, and it was at this time that the Romani language also began to take shape. But the mixture of peoples and languages didn’t stop there, for as the warriors moved northwestwards through Persia, they took words and grammar from Persian, and no doubt absorbed new members too; and the same thing happened in Armenia and in the Byzantine Empire, and has continued to happen in Europe. In some instances, the mingling of small groups of Roma with other peoples has resulted in such groups being absorbed into them and losing their Romani identity; the Jenisch are perhaps such an example. In others, it has been the outsiders who have been absorbed, and who, in the course of time, have become one with the Romani group.

In Europe, Roma were either kept in slavery in the Balkans (in territory that is today Romania), or else were able to move on and up into the rest of the continent, reaching every northern and western country by about 1500. In the course of time, as a result of having interacted with various European populations, and being fragmented into widely-separated groups, Roma have emerged as a collection of distinct ethnic groups within the larger whole.■
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Honorable Ian F. Hancock, of British Romani and Hungarian Romani descent, represents Roma on the United States Holocaust Memorial Council. He is professor of Romani Studies at the University of Texas at Austin, and has authored nearly 300 publications. In 1997, he was awarded the international Rafto Human Rights Prize (Norway), and in 1998 was recipient of the Gamaliel Chair in Peace and Justice (USA).

I'm taking Ian Hancocks word over yours on this matter Fionnguala. If we're comparing degrees, he is a decorated professor [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 03:19 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Yorick

07-08-2002 03:34 AM

So, we have an American game, prepetuating a derogatory misconception about a people who Patin call "the most persecuted minority in Europe".

One of the two loudest voices against mine are from a German who's own government "claims it reduces racial violence by removing Roma from their country."

Possiblility she's not getting the full picture? I see 2 + 2 making four.

The other voice is from a guy who's intent to prove me wrong about everything because a Christian can't be RIGHT about something can they?? That would mean they're actually logical and not chemotropically halucinating. ;)

I think the petition solution is a good move.

No I'm not just being a pain in the butt. I care about historical and factual accuracy, and am concerned that an oppressed people without a public voice (as mentioned in quoted posts) get their self esteem stepped on once again, this time by a new generation.

I'd hope it will never be said that the gaming community perpetuated this.

How do we get this petition going? Neb? Deathcow? How do we do it?

[ 07-08-2002, 03:35 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Whailor

07-08-2002 04:46 AM

Heh, this is a funny thread. Emotions flying high and people at times talking about who knows what...

First, I agree with Yorick on gypsies - it's wrong that the race as such is marked to be a "thief" right away. There are loads of thieves in every race, and it's definately not a 'treat' based on the race;

I do not see there any issue with the loads of skills and abilities. If any of you played through, for example, Fallout 1 & 2, you had to choose there too between a lot of skills and traits and perks. Nothing was confusing, simply read the description and done. I personally like when there's a lot of things to choose from;

The "not like BG1/BG2/IWD" issue - it was never stated that NwN will be an expansion to any of them, so it's silly to expect to see or recognize any of those games in NwN. Sure, some names and such in general may be common, after all, these games are 'based' on the same realm, but that's that. Also, NwN was aimed to be the multiplayer game mainly, with the possibility to create your own worlds and adventures. As far as I can remember, the game was always introduced as multiplayer game, which also "includes a single player campaign". So you don't like the single player story - fine, play multiplayer and create your own story, then;

Keep yer hardware up-to-date. Reading that some still have Voodoo1/2/3 and then blame it on NWN that it wont run, isn't serious. Either you've been playing only BG1 or Solitare, or nothing at all, if you still have such ancient hardware. Most of the current titles, and probably all the upcoming ones, don't support anything that old anyway;

As for liking or not - that's personal. Some do like, some don't. I do like BG1 and BG2, but to me these are already too old titles to bother myself with. Sure, there are classes I yet didn't try and occasional quest related to that class, what I didn't do. No biggie, it was fun while it lasted, but now it's too old, and I want something new. One can't hang to the past too long, or one will just wither away and vanish..

EDIT: tiny corrections here and there. Did I correct it all? Prolly not, so what..

[ 07-08-2002, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: Whailor ]

Downunda

07-08-2002 05:22 AM

I think y'all are reading too much into the gypsy thing. I'm not saying it's right, in fact I to believe it to be racist towards Romanies.
But you guys are making it sound like it was done on purpose by some racist pig that works for Bioware. I believe that ignorance is more likely the culprit and if you were to drop Bioware a line to let them know the conotations of having the "Gypsy" name associated with rogues, then they will release a patch and be very sorry indeed [img]smile.gif[/img]

Memnoch

07-08-2002 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
So, we have an American game, prepetuating a derogatory misconception about a people who Patin call "the most persecuted minority in Europe".

One of the two loudest voices against mine are from a German who's own government "claims it reduces racial violence by removing Roma from their country."

Possiblility she's not getting the full picture? I see 2 + 2 making four.

The other voice is from a guy who's intent to prove me wrong about everything because a Christian can't be RIGHT about something can they?? That would mean they're actually logical and not chemotropically halucinating. ;)

I think the petition solution is a good move.

No I'm not just being a pain in the butt. I care about historical and factual accuracy, and am concerned that an oppressed people without a public voice (as mentioned in quoted posts) get their self esteem stepped on once again, this time by a new generation.

I'd hope it will never be said that the gaming community perpetuated this.

How do we get this petition going? Neb? Deathcow? How do we do it?

Yorick, it's been fun watching you become energized with passion over the injustice with this gypsy reference (I don't feel as strongly about it myself - I'm probably quite an cynical person when it comes to social justice - but I can understand you guys feeling so strongly about it [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

Yorick, might I suggest something? I think YOU would be an excellent candidate to lead this petition to Bioware - you are articulate and I am sure you would be able to word something up to maximize the impact. I can provide you with the relevant contact details at Bioware and Infogrames if you like.

You may want to set up an email address (hotmail or something) to take in feedback from people, to gauge the level of support, before sending something to Bio/Infogrames which adequately reflects everyone's concerns (I know Ken Baker did this when petitioning Bio for releasing the IE as open source).

Just a suggestion though: you may want to ask for Z's permission before you use Ironworks as a launchpad to do this - I'm not sure if he has a professional relationship with Bioware/Infogrames to manage, and it would be unfair if this movement was to negatively impact him, being the forum owner and all. I don't *think* he will have a problem with it, but then again I don't own Ironworks. Just as a courtesy. ;)

Keep us updated on progress! It's quite inspirational and I wish you guys every success with it - it's great to see people walking the walk, not just talking the talk. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Neb	07-08-2002 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Downunda:
I believe that ignorance is more likely the culprit and if you were to drop Bioware a line to let them know the conotations of having the "Gypsy" name associated with rogues, then they will release a patch and be very sorry indeed [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yep, they'll be very sorry indeed once they realize that a Romany/Gypsy could sue them [img]tongue.gif[/img] They won't bother to make a patch because the thing is a bit racist. But because it could cost them money.

Memnoch

07-08-2002 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theifprowess:
im not a sore loser i just tire from argueing with you about a topic that shoukdnt be

There's an easy solution to that, mate - stop arguing. ;) There's no winning or losing involved here - just sharing points of view. That's what I do when I get bored with something - I use my Back button. Not many people use it unfortunately - they continue to argue even though it just makes them more and more annoyed. There's not much point continuing an argument once it's obvious the other person won't agree with you (this goes both ways ;) ).

Besides, I think that's it's great to see someone actually putting their money where their mouth is about righting a perceived injustice. Not many people actually do as they say - it's not a technical or gameplay topic per se, but it's refreshing to see people (Yorick, Neb, etc.) actually willing to put a petition together. I look forward to seeing the progress and results over the coming weeks/months. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

theifprowess

07-08-2002 07:14 AM

alright last post here for me i wanna petition all the loyal NWN players here a poll per say. who wants argumentitive stuff like this in the NWN forum or keep it in gen dis. if i wanted to continue bitching and arguing i would be back in gen dis argueing religion like i was before. got tired of it and moved on. i thought this area was free from it but guess not.and yes historical german figures wanted the so called gypsies, jews and any other CREEDS that werent perfect in their eyes removed from their country. but there were alot of civilians and or military figures who didnt want it as such. try watching shindlers list. it showed that in a course of tyranny there were those who fought against it in their own little way. yet another example of looking at the topic from 1 point of view.

i am german and i take great offense to you talking of germans like that. i find you offensive to a race of people yorick cause you see them as a whole. not all government figures are as such not to mention germany is no longer germans in a sense that immigration has dwindled the actual german population. so arew you talking about the germans now or the germans of ww2. regardless i hold what you said as very offensive

theifprowess

07-08-2002 07:31 AM

i see my bashing thread was closed off so ill finish here. memnoch said he is tired of me and yorick bitching back and forth i am 2.thats why i left general discussion. and this thread here got started off track here on the seventh post. yorick started talking about flaws in the game and pros, fine no problem thats what the post was about. he did not need to start a creed war in this.starting a topic like that is bound to get alot of positive and or negative feedback.

i thought while everyone is online there is no such thing as race or color but we are all numbers online. why cant we keep racisism off here and let it ride in the real world?let alone a general help forum.maybe you can overlook all my posts here in NWN nights forum memnoch, they have been to either help support or answer questions in this related area. never once did I spout out racial descrepencies.i did however get upset when someone else had to bring it to this section of the forum.

maybe im wrong maybe im right maybe we should spread the racial intolerances throughout this forum make everyone aware of how unfun this game can really be. but to go ahead and call me a sore loser(very childish might i add) cause i feel that maybe it is getting way outta hand and that i should leave i felt was very grown up of me to realize that this subject was going nowhere.

tegoyo

07-08-2002 07:43 AM

Well if anybody is a racist on this thread its Yorrik. Read his answer to Fionnguala MacMorna and you know what I mean.

Memnoch

07-08-2002 10:46 AM

Thiefprowess, nobody is questioning your helpfulness on this forum, you help has been noticed and is appreciated, but you seem intent on continuing to propagate this issue. This is NOT about winning or losing an argument. You have said your 2c. Yorick has said his 2c. You both disagree with each other. You move on. It's all quite simple to me. Continuing on beyond the point of sensible, civilized discussion is a sign of either naivete, immaturity or ego. (This applies to EVERYONE - not just you.)

If Yorick, Neb and Deathcow want to start up a petition to get the gypsy reference off NWN, then LET THEM. They have the right to do whatever they want to do, as long as they don't break our ToS. I commend them for taking action in something they obviously strongly believe in.

In FACT, after all the furore that has been caused with this, and all the inspirational, passionate statements in defense of social justice, I would EXPECT to see some action from the people involved in the form of a petition or something - otherwise it's all just a load of hot air, isn't it. Like I mentioned before I am happy to provide the necessary contact details at Bioware and Infogrames. I will wait for someone to ask me for this information. As Yoda said, do or do not - there is no try. ;)

Now let's put an end to all this and let everyone get on with enjoying NWN in their own way. [img]smile.gif[/img]

EDIT: I just noticed you said that was your closing post, thiefprowess - I appreciate your maturity and have edited my post accordingly to reflect this. Thank you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Kakero

07-08-2002 10:55 AM

kinda make us feel like we are in gamefaqs.com message board right? where everybody just bash everyone.

MagiK

07-08-2002 11:09 AM

At the risk of being contentious [img]smile.gif[/img] I like the game, even with the 1 henchman limit. (I use them all and shuffle them in and out as needed (thats what the rock of recall is for) Not to mention I have all the nifty goodies each of them gives you.

As for this overt racism I keep hearing about. I don't see it...I haven't seen a single reference to Gypsies or Roma or Romani or tomamto or what have you, I do have a halfling rogue though. Last I checked there were no real halflings in the world running around.
I think to find this game racist, you have to want to take offence, in which case you can never be satisfied because if you look at anything long and hard enough you will find some thing to complain about.

Well thats just my buck and a half about NWN, its a good game.

Yorick

07-08-2002 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tegoyo:
Well if anybody is a racist on this thread its Yorrik. Read his answer to Fionnguala MacMorna and you know what I mean.

That was totally uncalled for Tegoyo, and I would like an apology. I was raising the possibility - based on the information in the articles, together with the presented opinions of Fionn - of evidence of propoganda or a cultural "blind eye" rather than anything racial.

So in answer to your question Thiefnoprowess, I'm not talking about American Germans. Keep your shirt on. I'm talking about Germans in Germany who may or may not (how would I know, it's an assumption) have been influenced by this governmental policy.

How is that racist? I am against racism! That's the whole point of this!!!

Secondly, racism exists. Turning a blind eye to it doesn't make it go away. The negative stereotype will still be reinforced even (and especially if) people aren't aware of it. The existence of it is the problem, not the discussion.

I'm not sure why you're champing at the bit about this discussion here in this thread thief other than it being sour grapes. This is an evolved discussion regarding NWN and belongs here. Flow is a beautiful part of human discussion. So stop trying to censor it and just let it flow. Hit the back button if you don't like the thread. No-one's forcing you to read and respond. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Downunder, I never for once dreamed it was anything insidious. It seems like ignorance and misconception fathered the choice.

Memnoch, very well. I'll see if I can draft something and take it from there. Thanks for your encouragement and warnings. [img]smile.gif[/img]

MagiK, "Gypsie" is a character class (Rogue subclass) you can choose at startup. Don't be suggesting it isn't there, when all of us have seen it. :D

Finally I like bioware. I'm a huge fan of the games they make and would hate to see them get shut down over something this simple. If anything, alerting them to this would be helpful, rather than the scenario of them being sued retroactively years later for company closing damages. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-08-2002, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Yorick

07-08-2002 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MagiK:
 I haven't seen a single reference to Gypsies or Roma or Romani or tomamto or what have you 

Deathcow

07-08-2002 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Yorick:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MagiK:
 I haven't seen a single reference to Gypsies or Roma or Romani or tomamto or what have you 

Deathcow

07-08-2002 12:15 PM

For those of you who don't know, this is what the whole Gypsy = Thief topic is about. Gypsy is a PACKAGE for the Rogue class. Description below...

The gypsy is a vagabond, traveling from town to city and back again on a seasonal migration. They make their way through illegal means and cross paths with local thieves' guilds when they do.

It's easy to see how a Gypsy could take offense to that.

tegoyo

07-08-2002 01:20 PM

Sorry, Yorick, definately no apology from me. Maybe you read again what you wrote and maybe you apologise to Fionnguala MacMorna.

MagiK

07-08-2002 02:00 PM

Quote:

*sigh* Roma or tomatos. What a great guy you are MagiK. Try belittling a people not so oppressed and it might be funny.... ;)

Would you make the same joke about what African Americans call themselves? Or Jews?

Glad you enjoy the game though. Have a good one. [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE] Being of decent from a group that was slaughtered right along with the Jews and Roma in WWII I feel fairly comfortable making light of the subject. As I said, if you WANT to find a reason to take offense you will FIND reason to take offense, it is time for people to quit being such pansies and haveing a little backbone. Being called a pollack, a dego, wop, Kraut, Hebe or any other racial epithet should go right in the box with the "sticks and stones" poems for 1st graders. Sheesh. Lets all grow up and learn not to be so touchy about crap that really doesnt matter. (name calling doesnt.)

Aside from dissing my light hearted and cavalier remark about tomatos you didn't tell me where the Gypsies are being maligned in the game...granted Im only up to chapter 3 but I havent heard or read any references so far.

MagiK

07-08-2002 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Deathcow:
For those of you who don't know, this is what the whole Gypsy = Thief topic is about. Gypsy is a PACKAGE for the Rogue class. Description below...

The gypsy is a vagabond, traveling from town to city and back again on a seasonal migration. They make their way through illegal means and cross paths with local thieves' guilds when they do.

It's easy to see how a Gypsy could take offense to that.

Whups!! Thanks, it isnt so much in game that it appears then..I was looking in the wrong place...it is only in the character creation that you find this particular thing..good enough glad you told me and now I see the reason for taking offense.......As for the description....granted I haven't had a thesis level indoc to the Romani culture but if you take what is written in the character description and write it up in a non-Politicaly Correct way...soounds like everything I have read about them. Not saying all the bands were that way....just the Romani code of ethics were somewhat...outside the bounds for the rest of established cultures.

Anyway thanks, wish Yorick had just told me that. Anyway I still think people worry about stereo types way too much, and I say this as a partial polock that grew up in a place that didn't appreciate the Polish heritage.

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