No! don't stop! i'm enjoying myself! [img]smile.gif[/img]

And like you said..time stop....

you can't move out of area of effect if it comes at you from frozen time [img]smile.gif[/img] But you knew that already didn't you [img]smile.gif[/img] same with insect plague/earthquake....I believe their casting time is significantly [higher] than TS [img]smile.gif[/img]


But you saying our argument is based on TS and that it is therefore not fair is unfair as we have TS, you happen to be much better fighters and have constantly remind us that our weakling mages could do nothing whilst your brawny manly rock hard clerics are pounding on them with your big manly hammers.

Clerics have advantages too you know, its not unfair for a mage to have TS [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
Insect Plague will work on anyone, and invisibility is not a defense.

You need to target the Mage to cast Insect Plague. You cannot cast on a invisible target, nor can you target the ground.

Sorry for all the disappointed egos, but it's true. And the reason people solo more often with Mages is NOT because they're more powerful, but because they're easier to play, especially when you factor in the foreknowledge of what's going to happen next.

You say that they are easier to play with, then proceed to say that, that does not mean that the Mage is more powerful? By this assumation, the hardest class to play with is the most powerful... ...

Try assigning a solo Cleric and a solo Mage to two people who've never played the game and see who has the tougher time.

This is flawed, because you are using newbies. Put both in the hands of a veteran so that you can fully use their potential. The power resides in the Mage when you know how to use it. Clerics are powerful too, but the Mage has more potential.<hr></blockquote>

Um, no.

I said nothing about whether or not it's "fair." Fairness has nothing to do with it.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
You need to target the Mage to cast Insect Plague. You cannot cast on a invisible target, nor can you target the ground.<hr></blockquote>

Since you won't be casting any spells while you're invisible, I guess we'll have a picnic.

For the most part people play with a party at least once before they solo, they wouldn't be able to do it with any class if they didn't know what was coming, Clerics have to prepare for a test as well you know.

People who solo know the game, and usually know the classes, and therefore can use them to their upmost.

and surely ease of soloing is proof of a single classes power?

It'd be really hard to solo a level 1 bard that never advanced in level, does that mean a level 1 bard is not powerful? Of course it does! If it was easy to solo with a lvl 99 fighter then surely a lvl 99 fighter is powerful???????

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
Since you won't be casting any spells while you're invisible, I guess we'll have a picnic.<hr></blockquote>

I can cast Time Stop without removing my invisibility. Oh, the Mage will have a picnic alright. ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
Um, no.

I said nothing about whether or not it's "fair." Fairness has nothing to do with it.<hr></blockquote>


You implied it, thats enough.[ Ugh, or you didn't...suppose it differs with which way you look at it...uhh...sorry?]

And a picnic? Why not move out of your visibility, summon some uber-minions, set up a spell trigger with some hurting spells, go invisible again, watch as you ware yourself down on the minions, then reappear with a magical nuke.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
I said: Try assigning a solo Cleric and a solo Mage to two people who've never played the game and see who has the tougher time.

You said: This is flawed, because you are using newbies. Put both in the hands of a veteran so that you can fully use their potential. The power resides in the Mage when you know how to use it. Clerics are powerful too, but the Mage has more potential.<hr></blockquote>

It's not flawed--if one class is inherently more 'powerful' than the other, being played a newbie won't make much difference. Plus it erases foreknowledge of the game, which is huge cheese. I consider it a perfectly valid test.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
It's not flawed--if one class is inherently more 'powerful' than the other, being played a newbie won't make much difference. Plus it erases foreknowledge of the game, which is huge cheese. I consider it a perfectly valid test.<hr></blockquote>

It is flawed,

Assuming that the person is totally clueless about D&D, he/she will have an easier time with a Fighter( me bash stuff, me bash more stuff). Does this mean that the Fighter class is the most powerful class of them all?

Not really, because people learn, and as they learn, they begin to explore the possibilities of each class. A person well-versed in the ways of arcane magic, can do much more than a person well-versed in the ways of divine magic.

It is about the potential, it is there, you cannot deny it.

I'm denying it.

This thread is killing my enjoyment of the game. I'm beginning to get the notion that no matter what class I play, the character will never be as powerful or have as much potentential as the Mighty Mage as played by Dundee Slaytern.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
I'm denying it.
This thread is killing my enjoyment of the game. I'm beginning to get the notion that no matter what class I play, the character will never be as powerful or have as much potentential as the Mighty Mage as played by Dundee Slaytern.<hr></blockquote>

No need to get personal. I am only in this thread because I am debating for the Mage side. You can ignore this thread if you like, nobody is being forced to read it.

The scroll of Antimagic isn't a spell. Its like a potion if I remeber right, so it COULD be done as fast as any spell. If Antimagic thing is cast on a mage with ANY spellslike effects upon them, they are immediatly cancled, and the mage cannot cast more spells. Heck, since we are starting the whole thing awhile in advance for the mage to use triggers ect, the cleric could cast one on himself, then use one on the mage. Done. Mage can't do anything.

I'm pretty sure you can dodge ADHW if your fast enough. I've done it alot. Running out of the area is rather cowardly, but one must do what is neccesary. ;) The cleric could also use some helper spells that make tensers transformation look like the armour spell.

There are times when a mage could defeat a cleric, and times a cleric could defeat a mage. Let this bikering part end. It doesn't accomplish anything, since none of us are about to say that we're wrong.

This must be the third or fourth time I am repeating this already. You cannot cast on an invisible Mage. If the Mage goes invisible while you are casting the scroll, the scroll gets wasted because it gets cancelled.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
I'm denying it.

This thread is killing my enjoyment of the game. I'm beginning to get the notion that no matter what class I play, the character will never be as powerful or have as much potentential as the Mighty Mage as played by Dundee Slaytern.<hr></blockquote>

Mate you (and others) are missing the subjective nature of the discussion. The Mage is the most powerful for Dundee because that's the style he likes to play. He's found the most success with that class.

That's not to say the most powerful class you can play is, say an Archer. It all depends on your playing style and preference.

I find these sort of arguments ludicrous, as nothing can be proven or quantified. Endless conjecture and hypothesis. Put a veteran Mage player against a veteren Cleric player or Monk player and you may or may not find one class is dominant. What will that prove? That the player is adept at a computer game, not that the class is superior.

Go back to enjoying your game mate. I am. I've nearly finished a Jester (with NPCs) and have just started a solo Stalker. I like the NPCs for the conversant value and variety. Soloing gives a different aspect.

Who cares if it's right, wrong, powerful or not.

Are you having fun?

[img]smile.gif[/img]

lol so true, that is why I would say that wizard slayer and barbarians have a tie for best class. lol, clerics of helm are next though.

Okay, how is your mage going to know that a cleric is there if they are sanctuaried? Then, breaks sanctuary to hit you with scroll and that beats the crap out of you.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Okay, how is your mage going to know that a cleric is there if they are sanctuaried? Then, breaks sanctuary to hit you with scroll and that beats the crap out of you.<hr></blockquote>

The act of casting the scroll breaks your Sanctuary. The casting time, as you should know, is not instantaneous. IIRC, the casting time is between 2-3. Enough time for the Mage to simply grab his Staff of Magi and go invisible( assuming that he/she has no defensive measures at all in his/her Contingency/Chain Contingency and Minor Spell Sequencer/Spell Sequencer/Spell Trigger), causing your casting to be interrupted, and the scroll to be wasted.

Frankly, if I got hit with the antimagic scroll, I'd just high-tail it out of there with boots of speed. Cowardly, yes, but the wizard isn't a warrior!

Since this is a cleric mage debate, whats the highest attainable levels of a cleric/mage multiclass in ToB, anyone know? I just want to know if I'm doomed to a measly two level 9/10 spells for the rest of my miserable cleric/mage life!

In the context of BG2, there is a mage spell that can damage oppenents while time is stopped. As long as the high level mage can get off time stop, he is safe.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lukivah:
Since this is a cleric mage debate, whats the highest attainable levels of a cleric/mage multiclass in ToB, anyone know? I just want to know if I'm doomed to a measly two level 9/10 spells for the rest of my miserable cleric/mage life!<hr></blockquote>

The highest level a multiclassed Cleric/Mage can attain is 25/20.

That gives you 2 spell slots for level 9-10 Mage spells.

Oki day... Here is what the cleric does: sanctuary, then scroll on self. Mage can cast TS if he wants. He can't do crap for spell damage, so, thinking himself frightfully intellgient, he summons a plethora of enemies. Laughing all the way, the mage sits and waits for TS to end and the foolish cleric to die. However, the cleric wearing boots of speed just runs away from the summoned enemies! Then, he casts another scroll of antimagic on the mage, and runs away until the summoned morons are gone. ;) Animate dead doesn't last long enough I don't think... ;) Even still, the cleric can outlast the mage this way and eventually pound him into goo.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Oki day... Here is what the cleric does: sanctuary, then scroll on self. Mage can cast TS if he wants. He can't do crap for spell damage, so, thinking himself frightfully intellgient, he summons a plethora of enemies. Laughing all the way, the mage sits and waits for TS to end and the foolish cleric to die. However, the cleric wearing boots of speed just runs away from the summoned enemies! Then, he casts another scroll of antimagic on the mage, and runs away until the summoned morons are gone. ;) Animate dead doesn't last long enough I don't think... ;) Even still, the cleric can outlast the mage this way and eventually pound him into goo.<hr></blockquote>

Two words, TIME STOP

*groan*

Anyway, for your information, Skeleton Warriors last for 8 hours. Mages may run out of spells, but a Sorcerer will never run out of spells thanks to Project Image and Wish.

Also, you are still assuming that you can cast the scroll on the Mage. This is like the upteem time that I am repeating this... you cannot cast on an invisible Mage.

lol, nobody ever mentioned sorcerers. ;) And besides, if your mage is aflicted with a scroll that prevents spell casting, he can't cast spells like mirror image or Wish... ;) lol, besides, sorcerers aren't mages. They are sorcerers! lol [img]smile.gif[/img]

Um, timestop was dealt with. The cleric casts the wonderful scroll and your timestop won't really accomplish much. You summon stuff, and eventually, as the cleric can run fast enough, will fall apart. Meanwhile, the mage gets a scroll cast on HIM too eventually. At this time, Its only a matter of time before the mage falls. Invisiblilty wears off eventually, and eventually, all summoned creatures disapear. :> At this time, as the mage is scrolled, he can't do anything but try to run away himself now. ;)

Here I return from being awol for a couple a weeks and to my surprise the discussion still rages on [img]smile.gif[/img]
Good to see that we all still have our favourite kinda character class and still are willing to prove how powerful they are when pitted against the other classes (i.e. cleric vs mage/sorcerer)

Just wondering if in all of this people are considering equipment aswell as spells/power?

Who says that invisibility is limited? So long as I do not make an offensive move, the invisibility stays... forever until the Mage dies of old age or something.

Note: Time Stop is not considered an offensive spell, something to bear in mind.

r u sure invisibilty last 4eva..... and wat about detect invisibility???

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Glorfindel:
r u sure invisibilty last 4eva..... and wat about detect invisibility???<hr></blockquote>

Yes, at least for the level 2 spell, <font color="cyan">Invisibility</font>( although we can also mention the Staff of Magi).

Cloak of Non-Detection takes care of invisibility-purging spells.

Thats right, just reequip the staf and ur invisibillity is up again. And with robe of Venca u can cast TS on 4, then u cast around 20 spells in the TS, and The cleric will die when time starts. The mage7sorc have reequiped the staff and are invisible again.

Equip the cleric with cloak of mirroring and their amulet (forget name)..it'll make em last longer anyway!

Cloac of mirroring is just like a minor globe of invunrebilety. It wont help much, still get blasted from the mage/sorc spells

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by StormCast:
Cloac of mirroring is just like a minor globe of invunrebilety. It wont help much, still get blasted from the mage/sorc spells<hr></blockquote>

A correction is in order here. Under ToB, the Cloak of Mirroring grants the wearer unlimited Spell Deflection. Think of it as a Cloak of Absorbing instead.

Still will not protect you from Imprisonment though. ;)

Hmmz, I dodn't know that..... Well as u said, the only thing that u cant get imun from is inprisonment, exept the magespell magic imunity that is....

Cloak of Mirroring will also not protect the wearer from Psionics and Mental Spells either. Mental Spells include Fear, Confusion and Charm type spells.

Despite all this however, it is still a very cheesy cloak. I prefer wearing the Upgraded Clock of Protection +2 for my solo Sorcerer though.

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]</p>

Like that cloack too, to bad they dont sell the "Cloack of Balduran" from BG1 when u can get the Armor of Balduran.

Call me an newbie since I've never actually gotten in a fight with a high level cleric and mage but It would seem to me that if the cleric has some decent armor and weapons he could take out a mage pretty easily... if he can get close and through his protections enough to whack him with a powerful mace... he'll win.. if he can't he'll lose.

I've been playing Paladin's for years and they seem like a very powerful setup. Fighting prowess combined with cleric spells... a strong one-on-one performer. For playing solo magic users are pretty delicate beasts... until they get to the point where they can summon help.

I think it would come down to how well equipped the Cleric is... if he's fully taking advantage of the more powerful armor and weapons at his disposal a magic user would need to kill him in the first round in order to win I think... after that he'll close and start interfering with spellcasting.

Hi all. Haven't been here for quite awhile and noticed this nice little discussion. Having read all these posts I must say I wonder if you guys have played both classes. Now, it was a long time since I played the game, but I'll try to write a good post. Since there are so many spells, situations and circumstances I will not say "if your mage does that, my cleric will do that." "But then my mage will do this to counter your spell." You know what I'm trying to say... If we knew about this duel between a cleric and a mage, the two combatants would have to prepare so many different spells for every possible situation. Now I hear all you mages scream "But I have time stop, Lower resistance and Abi-Dalsim in my contingencies, triggers and god knows what." Well, there are ways around that to.
And no, you can't cast Insect Plague on an invisible character, but you CAN cast it on a friendly creature (for example a summoned creature) standing close to the invisible enemy, and the Insect Plague will spread to him to, even though he is invisible. But as you guys have already stated, that is a druid spell. (Unfortunately, cause it is a really mean spell. And it is better than creeping doom, since it lasts longer. It is not the damage you want with Insect Plague. It is the 100% magic failure.) Now, I haven't soloed a mage, nor a cleric, or I have soloed both. My first solo-character was Haddar, and he is/was a multiclassed evil cleric/mage. I can't say that I used the magespells more or less than the cleric spells. The mage has more firepower with more offensive, direct-hit spells, but the highlevel cleric spells are pretty offensive too and can pack a punch. The cleric spells often work in another way than the mages. They must often be used in conjunction with another spell, then these spells become just devastating. I come to think of Finger Of Death (which in fact IS a direct-hit spell. Isn't it a cleric spell AND a mage spell?)), which is just a darn good spell. "But then I have already cast Death Ward". Yeah right. How many spells can you cast in a couple of rounds? Oh..i forgot. You knew this fight was coming, so you cast Invisibility (staff of magi...ok), Protection from Evil, Armor, Infravision?,Protection from petrification, reflected Image, Shield, Blur, Mirror image, Resist Fear, Non-Detection, protection from Cold, protection from Fire, protection from Normal missiles?, Fireshield, and so forth and so forth. And how often do you run around with Death Ward memorized? I didn't even once. Ok, but only when I knew what was coming, which is kinda unfair. But you guys have already stated that. Anyway, if Finger Of Death is not offensive, then what is?
And yes, clerics only have up to level 7 spells, but in my opinion they make up for it with better lowlevel spells. At least _I_ used the "clerical" lowlevel spells more than the ones I got from the mage side. Well, who would win this battle? I honestly don't know. Luck, and skill of the player handling each character would have a high influence on the outcome. And if the players were equally matched in skill, I would say luck would determine the outcome. But if you want power, go for the multiclass cleric/mage. There you have endless possibilities, and can literally play with your enemies, testing new combos. It is veeeery slow in the lowlevels (beginning), but if you solo, you will level reasonably fast anyway.

Have a nice day all! =)

Oh, and sorry for my English. I'm from Sweden. =)

Yes, multiclassed Cleric/Mages are deadly. [img]smile.gif[/img]