But can't Elminster not directly interfere in your character's fate? Otherwise he would have probably done something in BG1, being Gorion's friend.

[ 12-16-2004, 10:26 PM: Message edited by: JayS ]

I guess...

Elminster (like most older Harpers) prefers to work through others. Which can justify a faction of Harpers (but not Elminster directly) helping the PC.

Is anyone actually reading my post or are you just all ignoring it altogether? It's not a factual post, I was waiting for your opinions on it so we can change it all.

In fact I did skip your post, because it was so big...

Your idea could work, but if the PC was told your harper is not a real one, why wouldn't he question her?

<font color=plum>If you are going to create a new group, I liked <font color=silver>SixOfSpades</font> idea about a group of Wizard Slayers. They would definitely want to see the Cowled Wizards removed from power - so they have the motivation. As for quests, the game already provides two quests that everyone goes on without any real justification - The Guarded Compound and the Twisted Rune. The PC never actually receives ANY directions or instructions to explore or investigate either of these places in the current game. And the large amount of magic in both settings would be reason enough for the Wizard Slayers to send our adventuring group into those buildings.

Another condition required by the Wizard Slayers would be that the PC must refuse to pay the "fee" required by the Cowled Wizards and they must cast magic outside in order to draw the C.W.'s to them. This will prove the PC's true desire to go against the Cowled Wizards, it will test their mettle in battle, and it will eliminate a fair number of wizards in the process - all of which would be seen as positive outcomes by the Wizard Slayers.

As for the HQ, the Bridge District seems like the most likely place and I believe there are a couple of houses there that currently have no residents assigned to them. The Docks District would be another option. Or perhaps the leader of the Wizard Slayers is actually a noble. He/She could have an estate in the Government District which would allow their group close access to monitor the actions of the Cowled Wizards.</font>

Those two places are rather dangerous, you probably couldn't rush to save imoen right at the start like some people like to so...

Agreed, Luvian. I think that taking on the Twisted Rune is *WAY* too difficult a quest to be asked of the PC, particularly as a prerequisite for getting the trip to Brynnlaw. It would effectively require the PC to just about clear every area on the mainland to build up enough XP to make the party strong enough to deal with the Twisted Rune.

OTOH, the "Guarded Compound", at least in the generic standard version, is manageable reasonably early on. Perhaps, clearing 1-3 big quest areas is enough to get strong enough to deal with the GC.

I don't know about trying to instigate fights with the Cowled Wizards out in public. For one thing, won't this potential hurt your reputation? Also, doesn't this place the publlic at considerable risk? That is, starting a fight with people who may think nothing of flinging around fireballs at you, etc. while there's innocent civilians about. This doesn't sound like a smart requirement for a supposedly "good" path.

Cerek, those are some decent suggestions for a Wizard Slayer HQ. From the viewpoint of ease of development, finding an empty building seems like the best option.

I just had a little thought. What about using Valygar's house in the slums? Not exactly "empty", but Valygar might be a member of such a group. I wouldn't think that a "Wizard Slayers" group would actually have to be composed solely of Wizard Slayer kit fighters. It might have a wide diversity of members, all of whom are opposed to the oppression of the Cowled Wizards.

One point on quests. Given the nature of BG2's main plot, it would seem that you would eventually need to take on Bodhi in her lair, similar to what you do for the Shadow Thieves. (I've never played the current evil "Bodhi" path, so I don't know what she says in that path.) It would seem that the main story would be "damaged" if you don't have that big battle in Bodhi's Lair, particularly so that the PC and Bodhi can have their little talk before she bails out and runs away. I'm not exactly sure how Bodhi and her lair would fit into a Wizard Slayer plot however.

On that note, I'd like to say a word about congestion. In BG1, you could wander around the towns of Beregost, Nashkel, and Gullykin, and explore the nine maps of the city of Baldur's Gate, and overall, roughly half of the homes you entered belonged to common townspeople. They didn't offer you any quests or have wonderful loot stashed upstairs or turn into Liches and attack you, they simply directed you to the inns if you needed a place to stay (the nicer ones might offer you their floor to sleep on), or their kids would make fun of you, or they pointed out that an unlocked door is not an invitation for total strangers to come and tour their home.
In the city of Athkatla, however, every third home contains a Lich. There are just TWO homes in the ENTIRE CITY that are home to simple people, uninvolved with any quest. In short, the city of Baldur's Gate is full of people who live there. The city of Athkatla is full of people for you to kill. I, personally, hate this.

I am therefore opposed to any mod that treats a house full of Commoners as a space to be filled with something nasty. Take the Lich in the Docks: What the hell is she doing there? An incredibly nasty Lich who would give the Twisted Rune a run for their money feels the need to hang out in the rattiest tumbledown shanty in the city? This makes <u>no</u> sense. No, what this game needs is more space: Athkatla cannot hold any new locations, unless they are actually NEW locations. Hence my idea of putting the Wizard Slayers' Guild in that curious little unused building in the Government District. Heck, if I had my way, I'd expand the entire city, adding a Residential District, a Kara-Turan District, etc., to correct the Lich/Commoner ratio.


All roads except the Cowled Wizards. They would Dimension Door you directly to Brynnlaw (Spellhold itself would be protected with an anti-teleport shield, just like Hogwarts), and accompany you to Perth the Adept's home, to borrow the Wardstone. But Perth had gone nuts, and the usual combat follows. The trick with this route is to discover who the traitor is if Yoshimo isn't in the party, and how the party learns to distrust Saemon if he's never done anything bad to them.


You know, I think I've changed my mind about that: They have no real reason to move against the Cowls or Irenicus, but they do care a whole lot about Undead. I can see their helping you to a goal that has nothing to do with their god's portfolio, provided you help them with a task that falls directly against that portfolio. (Siding with them could also put a tweak in the Sir Sarles quest, where you are encouraged to use the illithium yourself instead of investing it in an artwork.)


As for the Order of the Radiant Heart, the Order itself cannot be implicated in aiding any action against an established agent of the government such as the Cowled Wizards (and, by extention, neither can Prelate Wessallen), but I suppose a faction of younger Paladins (mostly Inquisitors) would be chafing at the bit to eradicate evil, even Lawful evil, from their city, and therefore might arrange passage for you. I mean heck, it's hardly a disloyal or criminal act to discover the location of a prison, and maybe charter a boat there. You might be able to choose your path with these Paladins: You could move against Bodhi and the Vampires (in which case an Undead Hunter becomes your advisor), or against Linvail and the Shadow Thieves (and an unkitted Paladin becomes your best buddy).


I agree with the others: The Twisted Rune is *NO* place to ask Chapter 3 parties to be. And I'm perfectly all right with having a few major battles totally outside the realm of established quests, the PC doesn't have to be directed through every little step.
The (unmodded) Guarded Compound, though, is roughly the same level of difficulty as Bodhi's or Aran's lairs, and a Good-aligned faction could easily discover their links to the slave trade and ask the PC to wipe them out. If the Improved version is installed, you could simply check for that and, if it's there, have the PC recieve a big stack of Invisibility potions and a Rod that contains 3 charges of an Inquisitor-level Remove Magic. The fight will still be tougher than unmodded Bodhi, but at least it will be roughly in line with a Chapter 3 boss battle.


All the Wizard Slayers would have to suggest is that you perform this baiting at night, when most of the people have gone to bed, and in a large area with no one about, such as the middle of Waukeen's Promenade or the Government District.


We read it, it's simply that the Harpers are going to be a major headache. A plot where the Harpers ask you to eradicate the slavers in the Copper Coronet, the Slaver Ship, and the Guarded Compound is simple enough, but the complications that arise as soon as the Jaheira possibilities are considered just throw a massive monkeywrench into the works. As we all know this, any idea that mentions two rival factions of Harpers sparks an automatic 'pain!' reaction. It might actually be easier if we ripped up Jaheira's quest and romance by the roots and re-wrote them in their entirety (so that they actually worked this time), and in such a way that left room for using the Harpers as a path to Spellhold, whether Jaheira was in the party or not.

We read it, it's simply that the Harpers are going to be a major headache. A plot where the Harpers ask you to eradicate the slavers in the Copper Coronet, the Slaver Ship, and the Guarded Compound is simple enough, but the complications that arise as soon as the Jaheira possibilities are considered just throw a massive monkeywrench into the works. As we all know this, any idea that mentions two rival factions of Harpers sparks an automatic 'pain!' reaction. It might actually be easier if we ripped up Jaheira's quest and romance by the roots and re-wrote them in their entirety (so that they actually worked this time), and in such a way that left room for using the Harpers as a path to Spellhold, whether Jaheira was in the party or not. </font>[/QUOTE]Well I'm glad that at least someone had the decency to actually give me feedback on what I had come up with. I mean, we've been talking about the Harpers almost the entire first two pages of this topic, and all of the sudden when someone posts a detailed idea of how/when/why everyone suddenly loses interest? At least give me something to fall back on. No offense to anyone personal, I just felt the need to rant about this one thing.

As for you idea with Wizard Slayers, all good and well Six, but why would Athkatla need <font color=red>another</font> faction inside the city besides multiple temples (in various alignments), a new upcoming religion (Unseeying Eye), the Shadow Thieves, the Harpers, slavers, and what more you might find on the streets. Athkatla isn't the only city in the whole wide world of Faerun and I sure as hell can't remember that many factions in Baldur's Gate (a city bigger and noteworthier than Athkatla, at least in my opinion).
Other than that, the Wizard Slayers are of course a valid adversary to the Cowled Wizards. But (and that's a big but in this whole story) you'd have to come up with a damn good reason for both the Cowled Wizards and the Shadow Thieves not knowing anything about them. The Shadow Thievs would not tolerate anyone new on their turf (certainly not a faction whose quite openly against the ruling faction when it comes to magic), and the Cowled Wizards, being the law upholding magic users they are would certainly have means to find out about a Wizard Slaying Guild in the streets of Athkatla.
I have some serious doubts about this whole idea, but if you have some sound explanations, please let me know, via this topic or otherwise through a PM.

Cheers everyone ( [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] :D )

Link

SoS, ou make some good points.


1. Congestion. SOlid comments. Regarding a wizzy slayers group, I wouldn't think that a group that's trying to oust the Cowled Wizards from control of Athkatla would be based outside of the city (in a pre-existing area). So that tends to leave either some pre-existing location on one of the city area maps or, as you suggest, creating a new area(s).

I think that the problem with creating any new areas is area maps. Unfortunately, the BG1 city maps are totally interlinked, so you really can't use any of them. I suppose that the Beregost town map could be used to represent a "suburb" of Athkatla. But that seems like a positively scarey amount of work.


2. Cowled Wizards teleporting to Brynnlaw. Good point. But it might break the story plot device of the party getting drugged on Havarian's ship. (I don't even know how the plot proceeds if you take Bodhi's path. never played it.) Then again, I suppose that the Cowled Wizards might have a traitor who has cast a drug-like spell on you, thus getting you into the same position, plot-wise.


3. Instigating a fight with the CW. I don't recall that the areas are really any emptier at night. I suppose that the park in the middle of the government district is about a good place as any. Next question. How do you get their attention? Will casting protection/buffing spells out in the open be enough to get the CW's attention?

4. Interesting comments regarding a paladin path.

Actually, Athkatla is a much bigger fish than Baldur's Gate, at least in terms of mercantile trade and human traffic. You're right about the factions in BG City, though: I can only think of the Thieves Guild, the Flaming Fist, and the Iron Throne (with a few token Harper and Zhentarim representatives).
Now, about the implied suggestion of locating the a new faction outside the Athkatla city limits, e.g., Trademeet: That would require all of the quests for that faction to take place in the city of Trademeet, since the alternative is to travel 20 hours to go do the quest, travel 20 hours to report that you've completed the quest, travel 20 hours to go do the next quest, etc.
No, I say keep it in Athkatla, there are tons of little nooks and crannies. Have you any idea how many buildings there are in the Slums District that you can't get into? Or what about all those unopenable doors in Waukeen's Promenade? True, it would require modifying the main map area, but all it would take is the addition of one little door, plus copying an indoor area file or two from BG1, and you're in business.

Why on earth would the Shadow Thieves object to the Wizard Slayers? They wouldn't feel threatened bacause hardly any of them use magic, the Wizard Slayers aren't specifically against organized crime, and the SThieves would actually benefit from the Cowled Wizards being eradicated, because it would create a power vacuum that the SThieves could fill more easily than anyone else.
Now, the Cowled Wizards would obviously frown on such a thing as the Wizard Slayers' Guild, but that's why the organization is housed inside a huge dead-magic zone, and thus nothing inside can be detected through divination. There's also the fact that the Cowled Wizards themselves might have created the WSG, as Warriors to guard & accompany them when arresting deviants. Only now that Lord Ketlaar Argrim has taken the reins has the WSG begun turning against the Cowls....without their knowledge. It has potential!


Ooooh, I just got a stupid idea. No matter who you side with in Chapter 3, there can always be some 3rd-rate flunky who's on your side. After Jon captures you, that flunky can be there, and he removes his disguise and -whammo- he turns out to be Saemon Havarian, who not only "poisoned" your party, but also owns the ship that brought Bodhi to the island! (Only problem is, it's gotta be a damn fast ship if it's going to compete with a Dimension Door. Ah, well, maybe we can say she teleported directy from Jon's dungeon to the portal beneath Spellhold.)


After night falls, the only people around are Beggars and Amnish Guards. Maybe a Harlot or Ruffian or two. Trust me, even in broad daylight, there are good flaces to throw Cloudkills without Rep loss. Any Wizard spell cast outdoors (except in the Graveyard District) will attract the Cowls, even those cast from scrolls or sequencers. You can still use Wands, though.

<font color=plum>Good discussions so far and several points to address.

1) Twisted Rune Quest - I agree that it is too difficult to do in Chapter 3. I was just throwing out ideas for quests and that fits in perfectly with the Wizard Slayers Guild concept. The WSG could always keep their end of the bargain, but require the PC to clean out the Twisted Rune as soon as possible after they return. Perhaps they could keep their fee at 20,000gp (after all, getting the money really isn't a big problem) and offer to refund the extra 5,000 after the Twisted Rune is cleaned out.

2) I'm glad to see some consideration is being given to certain members or factions of the temples and even the ORH helping the PC and his/party out. The justifications given make sense.

3) I also agree that the Shadow Thieves wouldn't care a whit about the WSG. Certainly the C.W.'s would be worried about such a group, but since the group is determined to take on the C.W.'s, they would definitely have taken precautions to keep their HQ well hidden and undetecteble.

4) Drawing the C.W.'s out to fight. If it is done right, the wizards never get a chance to cast any of those nasty AoE spells. My assassin refused to pay the fee on general principle and also felt like the C.W.'s should be taught a lesson for even asking. So he and Yoshimo set some traps at the base of the stairway that leads from the Shadow Thieves HQ down to Mae'vars guild. Once the traps were in place, I had Edwin cast Haste on the party - which not only summoned the C.W.'s but prepared my group for the battle as well. The wizards got hit with the traps, attacked by hasted fighters, blasted with spells by Edwin, and backstabbed by my assassin and Yoshimo. Most of the group was dead within 3 rounds or less and didn't have time to do anything except stand there and take damage.

5) I especially like the idea that the WSG started as allies with the CW's, but have since turned against them. Works for me. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] </font>

Or, you would not have to cast any spells at all. The Wizard slayers could give you like a stone, or something like that, that when deployed on the ground in a specific ditstrict, will lure the CW´s to it. A bit more complicated then just casting haste, but it adds roleplay. I mean, if the wizard slayers hate magic, they wouldnt ask the protoganist to go out the door, create the thing they hate most, and then go back in, now would they?

Mystique, don't get to hung up on the term "wizard slayers". I think that we are not so much thinking about a bunch of wizard-hating killers as we are a covert group who is opposed to the Cowled Wizards' oppressive tactics in Athkatla.

Magness is right... I would imagine a guild of wizard slayers would have quite a few magic users among its ranks. Good luck setting up antimagic fields, avoiding detection, or lowering a foe's spell protections without a magic user.

Edit- Oh yeah, Lumie. You rock that goddess of truth and justice like woah.

[ 12-18-2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Illumina Drathiran'ar ]

Illumina, et.al., perhaps we shouldn't even use the term "wizard slayer". I don't know what term would be better at the moment and I suppose that WSG works for the purposes of discussion. It's just that the term "wizard slayer" calls up images of mage-hating killers. ;)


Somehow, I don't think that the Athkatla Civil Liberties Union would work out. ;)

My own definition of the Wizard Slayer ethos:

"The Wizard Slayer is a fighter who has focused his efforts toward the destruction of spellcasters. They believe that Wizards and (to a lesser extent) Priests represent a very real danger to the community as a whole: The study of magic is very taxing on the mind, and weakened--or tempted--individuals can easily wreak a great deal of havoc and carnage before they can be contained. For this reason, strict methods of control must be put into effect, and certain guardians must be trained to overcome any rogue spellcaster. Wizard Slayers study just enough of the mystical arts to be able to defy them."

Plenty of room in that to allow for Mages within the Guild--even the famously improbable Wizard Slayer->Mage dual is not out of the question, because those who devote themselves to seek out ever more effective ways to incapacitate dangerous spellcasters would know that it doesn't get much more effective than Spellstrike.

It might interest you to know, Cerek, that (in my mind, anyway) the Guild incudes a recruitable NPC named Tanith Darr, who also happens to be Tolgerias's right-hand woman. She's a high-ranking member in both organizations, informing each against the other as her own interpretations of the law sway her back and forth. Watch the sparks fly between her & Valygar....or Aerie.

Aha, well, since im dont read many Baldurs gate books and the like, i simply referred to the description of the class.

SixOfSpades,

Are you saying that the Wizard Slayers Guild is an honest to goodness FR organization and not just an idea that someone in this thread threw out as a vague idea?

I think it was SoS himself that came up with the idea. Check out page 2.


(Btw, 100 posts, cool!)

[ 12-19-2004, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Mystique ]

Not a clue if there's a PnP version of this sort of thing, I simply saw that the current version of the Wizard Slayer sucks ass, and so designed a Rebalanced version (what I quoted above is the first half of the Kit Description), and I also perceived the need for a foil for the Cowled Wizards. Then I combined the two and threw in Lord Argrim, who was already in the game, and viola, a neat and plausible background story for the Wizard Slayers' Guild. I'm not going to bother to check and see if there's already such an organization in FR lore or not, because I know that if there isn't, there should be. (Although if there is, I should at least make sure the names match.)

I'm pretty sure there is a PnP WS kit...but I don't have a 2nd Ed. Warrior's Handbook...so I couldn't tell you.

Surely a group oppossed to the CWs would contain magic users, as it is th CWs that are enforcing a ban against magic, thus they would want to overthrow the CWs, so that the ambsih government could no longer prevent its use?

There seems to a mod coming soon by G3 that includes another way: King of Amn. Maybe this will be good?

http://www.gibberlings3.net/loi/index.html

Ok, we have some ideas here, lets narrow them down. These are the ones that was kind of approved by people.


The Harpers

The Cowled wizzies

Wizard slayers guild

Also, i dont know if it was liked or not, but the Zhentarim seems really cool, although it is not a good aligned choice.

Now, if the Third way is starting up in January, why not make the weight on the shoulders of the people at Limbo a bit less.

I think we should vote, after all, if the people wants it, i think its kind of a good idea to do what they want, since they will be more happy, then if just a few groups of people decided what its going to be.

So, Harpers, Cowled ones, Wizzie slayer guild, (and maybe Zhentarim, but i want to leave that to some powerful guy like Six o spades)

Please tell me if i said something that is not right in here. I also think (if there is one) that someone a bit more known should handle the voting thing.

Well, I for one wouldnt be averse to having another way of getting to Spellhold. Personally I would love to go through the harpers.

And if anyone needs any help with the dialog and conversations then I would be more than happy to help.

--Kestrel--

While we here at Ironworks can certainly vote to see what people would most like to see as an alternate way of getting to Chapter 4, there's not really a whole lot we can do about it apart from reaching a decision. While we know a lot about the game and can come up with great suggestions and dialogue for mods, only a very few of us have any experience at all at modifying the game. I myself have done nothing more than make a few interesting items, and I don't even know enough WeiDU to make a self-executing installer--if I want to send the items to someone else, I have to Email them the ITM file and the Description separately, and then they have to use IEEP to merge the two back together.

In short, Ironworks is not a modding forum. Forgotten Wars and Gibberlings Three, however, are. When it comes to modding, we are the classic eunuch in a harem: We can observe and criticize, but we can't actually do it ourselves.

Wich is exactly what i said. The people at Limbo, may think its better for the people to decide wich way its going to be, instead of doing it themselves, and, perhaps chosing "wrong". After all, Lennon Cook said that the Limbo team would start working on the third way again, as soon as the site was up, in January, with the ideas he got from this thread.

[ 12-26-2004, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Mystique ]

Well, because this thread is all about having a GOOD ALIGNED alternative...

Bye bye CWs.

Potentially ixnay on the WSG.

Which leaves the harpers :D

All right, I guess I'll claim the WSG as "my" idea and let you promote the Harpers--except that the Harpers aren't exactly "Good" either, are they?

It appears that the Radiant Heart and the Temple of Lathander do have some potential after all, but I think it'd be kind of lame to have the two organizations have the exact same motivation (Bodhi's an Evil Vampire) and quests (kill Bodhi). Can anyone think of qualitative differences between these two paths?

SoS, if you're asking about "qualitative differences" between a Radiant Heart and a Temple of Lathander path, why not have them be working together?

Thats a great idea!!! I mean, they both want the same things, and they are sort of the same, the only thing is that the RH are knights, and Lathanderithes are clerics.

Maybe one of the quests could be to clean out the guarded compound, so that the RH and Lathanderithes could establish their headquarter there. I mean, they could together forge like, a new group, that way, people get a whole new way to spellhold, a new group to help them except it is made out of two old ones.

I mean, the normal Lathanderithes and RH´s would not be removed, they would function just like before, only that they both sent a group of men and women to make a new group.

How about that? Two major Athkala influences uniting under one banner?

I'm not so sure that they'd form a new group. For that matter, simply asking the party to clean out the guarded compound just so that the two groups could have a new HQ seems rather "evil".

I think that these two groups would be working together would be to oppose the current vampire infestation of Athkatla. Destroying the undead is certainly a part of Lathanderite mission. And I just cannot imagine that the Radiant Heart wouldn't be highly interested in destroying the vamps.

Seeing as they send paladins to aid you destroy them all when you ask them for help in the final assault upon Bodhi.

The thing is, the only things different is the quests you will have to do in order to advance onto the assault upon the crypt. It will still end up the same ending as the Shadow Thieves; An attack upon the vampyrs.

Would you want to make a new ending for another group? I mean, you wouldnt want to do the same again would you?

Shadow Thieves - Assault the Vampyr Crypts
The Vampyr Guild - Assault the Shadow Thieves HQ
New Group - Assault New Target


--Kestrel--

I suppose that you could create a situation wherein the target was the entire slaver conspiracy, i.e. at the Copper Coronet, the Slaver "ship", and the Guarded Compound.

And I suppose that the Radiant Heart might be a legit group to care about that.

Or maybe, a new group of demon killers?

The planar sphere and the twisted rune as targets?

I think this has been discussed before but this Twisted Rune is really too difficult for a chapter 3 character to take on, no matter how many quests they have completed prior to get the experience.

And I would imagine that the Planar sphere would interfere with the already implemented Planar Sphere quest set down by the Cowled Wizards.

--Kestrel--

I don't know... They might have similar goals, but their methods are hugely different. It would be easier to have the temple of Helm working with the Order... At least Helm has knights there.

However, I might be a bit biased because I don't like the idea of the temple and the Order working together at all. It sounds a bit strained, like we're grasping at straws.

It there was a Cowled Wizards path, the PS might be a part of that path. However, you'd probably screw it up by siding with Valygar, or at least, by killing Tolgerias within the PS itself.