Gotta pipe in.

First off, while some of the reasons are plausible, some are just foolish.

#2 -- translated, says "You bad parent! It's your fault."

#3 -- slippery slope. Do all spankings follow up with "feelings of anger and fantasies of revenge"? Some do and may, but not all.

#4 -- not an issue, but Old Testament and New Testament are dramatically different. Old is much more black-and-white wrath and punishment oriented, while New is more compassionate. I'll leave that there.

#7 - spank your kid, create a columbine. Somehow, the cause-and-effect link isn't quite there.

#8 - spanking leads to sexual exploration and lower back pain? Okay, I'd like to see some actual study on this one... I was spanked as a kid, and lemmetellya, it's not high up on my fantasy list ;)

Now, all that being said, even though I was spanked as a kid, I've never spanked either of my kids. Why? Well, partially because I act, and don't react. Or at least, that's what I try.

When I see people spanking their kids, more often than not it appears to be done in reaction to what's happening at the moment.

I came across something once that said if you're going to spank, do it the next day when you're not caught up in the moment. At that point, if you can clearly decide that spanking is the appropriate response, do it.

For me, I have yet to find something where the next day, spanking was the best response. It's definitely not a case where my kids think I won't do anything; rather, they know I'll do something, but it will impact something they care more about than their behind. Playtime, privileges, going out, special toy time... those are things that they can give up temporarily.

I've had conversations with my kids where I make it clear that I love them, and I don't like that behavior. There has to be a consequence, and sometimes we'll discuss what the consequence should be.

I've also had conversations with them where I apologized or said I was sorry. I've acknowledged making mistakes before, and promised to try to avoid them in the future.

See, my job as a parent is not to create some rule-obeying automaton. It's to create someone who, in just a few short years, will be able to survive on their own as a reasonable and competent adult. To do that, I have to talk to them at a higher level every so often, so that they understand the reason behind some of the decisions we make.

And I have to disagree -- while many children may misbehave because of bad parenting, logically that's as accurate as saying all gamers are antisocial devil worshippers. Some may be, but that doesn't characterize the entire group. There are other reasons kids may misbehave, from physical and medical conditions to simply just being sick.

Last week Monday, I flew from Detroit to Boston. In front of me was a woman with two kids, around ages 3 and 6. The six-year-old was not having a good day, and was crying throughout the process of going through security. He ultimately went through twice (because the first time he banged against the sides, which sets of the detector).

When I finally got through, I went past. I could hear him still crying, so, thinking of what it would be like if my wife were in that situation, I went back to offer some help. The woman at that point was standing with the older boy in one arm, trying to keep him from wandering away somewhere, while she tried to buckle the younger child into her stroller. She was having none of it either at this point, and the woman gratefully accepted help getting the girl buckled in.

Turns out the boy was a special-needs child, and his reaction was appropriate for the situation he was in. Unfortunately for everyone else, it's not what they wanted.

Would spanking have helped him? I don't think so. It would have caused an acceleration to a higher level of conflict.

Before I had kids, I thought the rules for raising them were black-and-white. Now that I have them, I realize that they shift around every day, with every situation, just like life does. I know I won't be a perfect parent, but I can give it my best shot and try to fix things when I go off course.

Hmmm... I know where I started this, but I'm not completely sure how I got to where it ended. Oh well... 'tis still true, and still my opinion. [img]smile.gif[/img]

LOL... a grain of truth but to simplistic.

Children misbehave because they don't know HOW to behave, it's the parents responsiblity to guide them as they grow, to TEACH them how to behave. A bad parent can cause bad behavior in their children, both by teaching them bad behaviors and failing to teach them good ones, but bad parenting is not the cause of all misbehavior. The toddler that grabs the toy from another is not doing so because their parent taught them to, but the 7 year old who does the same thing is doing so because their parents never taught them NOT to.

True. Of course people must have some space when raising their children, but I do feel that when it they manage to prove that hitting children has longlasting negative physical and psychological consequences (even if this only applies on a limited number of children), steps must be taken to protect these kids. There are plenty of bad parents around, and there should be limits to the damage they can do to their children.

On another note, if anyone has an article proclaiming the benefits of spanking kids, feel free to post it here.

[ 06-28-2004, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

True. Of course people must have some space when raising their children, but I do feel that when it they manage to prove that hitting children has longlasting negative physical and psychological consequences (even if this only applies on a limited number of children), steps must be taken to protect these kids. There are plenty of bad parents around, and there should be limits to the damage they can do to their children.

On another note, if anyone has an article proclaiming the benefits of spanking kids, feel free to post it here. </font>[/QUOTE]It's a dangerous thing to use broad legislation to protect a few, and it's impossible to legislate good parenting. At best such action is ineffectual, at worst it does real damage. If a tool can be correctly and appropriately applied by good parents, it's wrong to play social engineer and take it way... all the while hopeing that there won't be any negative social implecations.

I'd equally like to see real clinical studies that establish long term damage from parental spanking (not child abuse, there's already lots of legislation covering that).

Yeah, you're right - the act of stoning in such a case isn't harsh or barbarian whatsoever. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

What does it matter what the bible say's about hitting your own children!!!</font>[/QUOTE]Exactly my point. But I didn't bring it up, SomeGuy did. ;)

[ 06-28-2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

LOL, I had to laugh at some of the replies but at some parts of the article too. I mean what the hell is this about??

8. Spanking on the buttocks, an erogenous zone in childhood, can create in the child's mind an association between pain and sexual pleasure, and lead to difficulties in adulthood. "Spanking wanted" ads in alternative newspapers attest to the sad consequences of this confusion of pain and pleasure. If a child receives little parental attention except when being punished, this will further merge the concepts of pain and pleasure in the child's mind. A child in this situation will have little self-esteem, believing he deserves nothing better. For more on this topic, see "The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children".

Erm, somehow I don't think the quite significant number of people who are into S&M have all been spanked as children. And making a little spank during sex sound perverse and even "sad" smacks of the sort of closeminded prudish attitude that is prevalent among people who've never tried anything beyond missionary. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
(note for the hotheaded; I'm not disclosing anything about my personal preferences here [img]tongue.gif[/img] , just picking up on something I thought was stupid)

As for the issue in general; I don't think my parents have spanked me for more than 4 or 5 times in my entire life (spanking as in a short sharp angry slap given when I was REALLY pushing the limits, not as in being put over the parent's knee and hit repeatedly as rational punishment - they never did that). I don't think it's necessary, but I don't find it particularly awful either that I was slapped a few times, because it happened so extremely rarely. I disagree with spanking as a measured, frequent, standard punishment (i.e. child commits offense, is told what it did wrong and that it will be punished by being put over the knee and given any given number of hits) and would never consider it as an option myself. And I'm convinced that the countless parents who feel likewise are none the worse parents for it, in my eyes perhaps even better.

Right, I forgot about the goofiness of #8 when writing previous posts. I don't consider it a sexual danger, unless taken to abusive extremes.

For the record, I think I was only ever spanked once by my parents (at <6 years old). I don't have any kids, but when I do I certainly won't use spanking as a disciplinary measure until absolutely EVERYTHING else has failed to get the point across.

However, two of my good friends were regularly spanked as children, and they turned out just fine. They are gentle, moral young men with an excellent relationship with their parents. So I'm not prepared to condemn spanking altogether. I'm not saying that there isn't other effective methods of child rearing, just that spanking does not necessarily =evil.

No, I think it is fairly obvious that spanking does not create deranged, abusive, effed-up adults in 100% of the cases - thankfully. :D If that were so there would be plenty of areas in the world full of psycho people. I do however think spanking is not strictly necessary and as such I doubt I would use it as a punishment. Why do that if you can manage just as well with other forms of punishment?

Exactly. Spanking children wouldn't be my choice, but I'm prepared to allow others to raise their children that way within reasonable limits.