God Bless you, Felix.

My sister has every sort of mental instability you can imagine. She's 17, so my parents have some degree of control over her. But I dread the day, a few years from now, when she decides to up and leave, maybe with some guy. But she would be unable to stay with him, either. There is a very good chance she'll end up on the streets, with absolutely no way to change her situation.

People are different. You have your experiences, Felix, and you've had many more than I, because you have more time. And I respect what you've seen, but you need to be aware that situations exist outside the ones you've described. People don't just end up on the streets. Women in particular are in danger of this... They're raped or molested as girls, and snap some time down the road. People can end up in a bad place because of remarkable circumstances, and maybe they *can't* just "get over it" or "get a job."

And growing fishing, hunting, or growing a garden in Manhattan is probably some sort of zoning violation.

ID, I wish your sister and your family all the best. My Wife became a social worker after the events of 9/11 (leaving a six-figure, high profile CPA position at a major tax firm in Manhattan). I can only imagine how tough things are in a situation like the one you touch on.

Those are really, really ignorant statements. Seriously, what the hell? </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=ffccdd>Why? How does it make YOU feel? Does it strike a chord? I have patrolled the streets of Kosovo, I have been shot at, and returned fire in many places other than Iraq. I have walked the streets of El Paso, TX. So tell me, Oh wise one what do my first hand experiences of people, poverty, and the dying not have to do with this political scam? I have seen an (insert what you like, but it must be politically correct) kill a (the other politically correct term) because he raised a 'pig' to feed his family. I have seen fertile ground sit idle. I have seen sex in the streets and no protection used. I have shared a bottle with a 'bum' to experience life without shelter. He could have shelter, but 'he' choose to weather the storm. Others could have shelter too, but it would call for that four letter word, AKA: WORK.

The key here is WILL where there is will, there is a way. However, I have seen with my own two eyes, many ways, but not a single will!

If you want to cry foul, go forth an experience life to it's fullest, then come back full circle and we shall quantify your findings!</font> </font>[/QUOTE]http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...l/emot-911.gif
...And as we all know, anecdotal evidence automatically beats common logic and actual factual knowledge - and allows you to say whatever the hell you want to say to drive home a certain point, in whatever way you want to say it; even at the expense of sounding like a jerk in the process. So those millions upon millions of people in, say, Ethiopia or India dying of hunger are just lazy? Ever heard of overpopulation, ruined harvests, natural disasters, wars, or even simply climate and weather conditions playing a role in possible cases of hunger?
As for Aids, people getting raped in South Africa are just asking for it? Careless, unhygienic blood transfusions spreading aids is the patient's fault? Hey, and did you know Aids could get carried over to newborn babies as well, in 15 to 30% of all cases, with the risk getting higher when breastfeeding? Those babies had it coming as well, right?
And yes, nice newsflash there that people in poverty and desperation could do horrible, horrible things. The New Orleans disaster fallout in itself demonstrates that clearly, but I was aware of that beforehand as well. Just that I didn't see it with my own eyes doesn't automatically invalidate anything I have to say by default, however.

I'm sure you've seen some awful things, and without a doubt in those anecdotal cases those people had it coming just like you said, but anecdotal evidence should never cloud your judgment in the face of other known and more prevalent causes for aforementioned tragedies. For someone as experienced in life as you are, reading a newspaper every once and awhile shouldn't be that much of a problem, right?

[ 09-20-2005, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

About the ad itself, since I haven't commented on it yet:

I agree with the point (*) it makes, but not the way it makes. MTV is, as far as I know, an american tv company, and the ad (if it existed really) uses a theme (9/11), which is still a sore spot for many americans.

(*) The point being that for us to talk about something important, it has to happen suddenly, has to be in the press and has to be unexpected. If it weren't for Live8 concerts we wouldn't have talked about poverty. If 9/11 hadn't happened then Afghanistan and Iraq wouldn't have been attacked. But I'm starting to go into too many ifs here...

Those are really, really ignorant statements. Seriously, what the hell? </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=ffccdd>Why? How does it make YOU feel? Does it strike a chord? I have patrolled the streets of Kosovo, I have been shot at, and returned fire in many places other than Iraq. I have walked the streets of El Paso, TX. So tell me, Oh wise one what do my first hand experiences of people, poverty, and the dying not have to do with this political scam? I have seen an (insert what you like, but it must be politically correct) kill a (the other politically correct term) because he raised a 'pig' to feed his family. I have seen fertile ground sit idle. I have seen sex in the streets and no protection used. I have shared a bottle with a 'bum' to experience life without shelter. He could have shelter, but 'he' choose to weather the storm. Others could have shelter too, but it would call for that four letter word, AKA: WORK.

The key here is WILL where there is will, there is a way. However, I have seen with my own two eyes, many ways, but not a single will!

If you want to cry foul, go forth an experience life to it's fullest, then come back full circle and we shall quantify your findings!</font> </font>[/QUOTE]Just because you've had the luck to be born in a country with social healthcare and actual possibilities to take care of yourself doesn't mean that everyone in the entire world has had that opportunity.

And the fact that you're actually proud of yourself patrolling streets and taking and opening fire makes me sick. I think those ads 'on MTV' are a tad bit offensive but to say that they're over the top, horrible and sickening? That your the American patriotistic view on the matter, I'm sure that 90% of Africa's inhabitants couldn't care less about 9/11.

Just a minor correction, Link: America is not a "country with social healthcare," technically speaking. And a darned shame, too. ;)

Felix called this a political scam. All these adverts do is show just how narrowminded people are. The issue isn't the "sickening" exploitation of the 9/11 tragedy, the issue is that these adverts show american* people how wrong their priorities are, and they dont like it; hence the ban. You like to think that the people who are suffering are the ones who are to blame, because that absolves you from the guilt you have not being able to help them.

Most humanitarian problems happen because of natural disaster coupled with corrupt government. These adverts are not just a political scam, they are meant to create political pressure. Politics is the only solution to these problems, and so I think the adverts are just and the revulsion to them only shows their effectiveness. How can you dismiss an attempt at helping those in need as sickening?

Felix, a military background gives you a very biased picture of the world. You have been sent to deal with man made problems, where humanity is at its worst. i think your opinion would be somewhat different if you were an aid worker.

*I don't mean this as anti-american. It happens here as well. The london bombings and the war on terror overshadow more grievous problems with the world, simply because they are closer to home.

[ 09-20-2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Melcheor ]

So the fact that he is proud to have defended the defenseless makes you sick? It's not a matter of "I got to shoot at fifty [insert racial slur of choice] today", it's a matter of "I was able and ready to defend the peace in a region of the world where instability and violence was more common than it was with my presence"

The fact that you feel that is something to be looked down upon says alot about you Link. Let me quote one of my favorite songs and one that has helped shape the direction of my life
While I agree with much that Felix said there is a small % of the population that is unemployable due to mental health problems, physical handicaps, etc etc, they certainly didn't "choose" to be homeless, and likely either don't know, or refuse the options that could alleviate their pain (mental hospitals, social security and halfway houses, etc)

Since the commercial in question was supposed to have been on american MTV it makes sense to look at it from an American perspective, and is unfair to overgeneralize (in both ways). AIDS cases in the USA are MOSTLY caused by the wilfull actions of those aflicted, in third world countries, not so much. But unsanitary blood transfusions hasn't been an issue in the US in a very long time, sharing needles for drug use, they knew the risks going in. the only ones who aren't at fault are babies born with AIDS which is a tiny portion of the US AIDS population (which is what Felix was addressing, and overgeneralised).

For Africa where is it so rampant and widespread I'm sure a much higher % of the problem is due to children being born with the disease, and surviving into childbearing age (which is much lower there than is considered normal in the west) and having children.

As for world hunger, and homelessness, the US donates very substantial amounts to foreign governments, as well as what is donated and volunteered by private citizens, and it grows exponentially when there is a major event that makes things worse in the country in question, like the tsunami relief efforts.

But the problems are also prevalent in the US, and I'm a firm believer in making sure your own house is in order before telling other people how to arrange theirs. The homeless (if able to work) should get involved with programs like habitat for humanity, where they help build their own homes and donate x amount of hours to Habitat for Humanity before being given a home, like Felix said, building their own place in the world.

[ 09-20-2005, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

<font color = lightgreen>Who cares about MTV? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

Those ads, even if they are real and were really "banned" by either MTV or the government, are designed solely to motivate people into some sort of action through guilt. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am not motivated by guilt. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>