Mordenheim, the Patriot Act itself is the first step down the road to McCarthyism. But, you are right - generally it is not the government that's doing this. And, you are right in that everyone has the right to *not* listen to the things he has a right to say.

I think it is generally poor form to characterize all of Hollywood (and I myself am guilty), and Robbins points this out in his speech rather well. Arnie never gets black-listed, and he is certainly a Republican. Hollywood folks tend to be pretty liberal, but then again - it *is* located in California, where Dems and Repugs alike are pretty liberal.

But, if you do want to characterize Hollywood, I find it to be one of the most self-critical places you could cite. Movies like "15 Minutes," "Bullworth," etc. bash the very institutions that are putting them up on the screen. Indeed no one derides the hype of fame more than Hollywood. Biting self-honesty is still present in America, even though most media sources, like most Americans, are on the patriotism band wagon.

Remember, the "anti war" speeches at the Oscars got as many (or more) boos as cheers, despite what those making the comments suggest.

I think this is the true legacy of the America - is that each of us ARE allowed to express our individual opinions and that we would ALL benefit from listening to opposing views - because none of us are 100% right all of the time.

That is one of the things I like about IW.

Yes it does, but McCarthyism also spawned the infamous hollywood 'blacklists' where many talented actors, actresses, directors, and others were denied work based on the merest hint they where communists.

<font color=plum>That last part is a bit exaggerated, but your main point is very valid, <font color=palegreen>Mordenheim</font>. I remember a real-life incident involving Joan Collins during the 80's when <font color=white>Dynasty</font> was the top prime-time soap opera. She was involved in a trial (I can't remember about what) and was called to the witness stand for several days to testify. She said that the first couple of days, everyone in the courtroom was acting somewhat "odd" towards her. Finally, she realized the problem...they weren't expecting Joan Collins to testify - they were looking for the "bitchy" attitude of Alexis (her character on Dynasty). On the third day of the trial, she began "playing the role" of Alexis on the stand... and the trial started to go her way. She had to slip into character in order to be taken seriously.

As <font color=palegreen>Mordenheim</font> points out, these actors and actresses play dramatic roles very well. They know how to play to an audience because that is what they do for a living!

<font color=plum>Despite the objections of our esteemed counselor, I have to agree with you 100% I'm sorry, but 2 movies out of the hundreds that are made does not strike me as being overly "self-critical". How many of the other movies produced by Hollywood followed the standard formula of corrupt corporations or gov't officials as the primary antagonist? And to claim that Hollywood is NOT discriminatory is turning a blind eye to the obvious.

And - as Mel Gibson found out - Christianity is even more of a taboo topic...unless the Religious Representative is portrayed as the antaganist (Poltergeist 3, Cape Fear, etc). Plenty of "alternate" religions are portrayed in the "heroic role", but if Christianity is portrayed at all, it is almost universally in the role of the villain in today's Hollywood. This is not "paranoia"...it is simple fact.

Now I will admit that <font color=tan>Timber</font> is correct about Arnie...he is a staunch conservative and it hasn't affected his career too greatly. Of course, his megastar status was well established before he decided to become "active" in politics. He waited until he had enough clout to withstand any firestorm that might come his way.</font>

Wanna explain that one to me? :mad:

Wanna explain that one to me? :mad: </font>[/QUOTE]Chill, mon ami...note the wink at the top of the original post...pay attention to the negative media Canada is getting for their present anti-American stance in the war with iraq...I am well aware that not all Canadians agree with the decisions of their governing officials...Canadians should be well aware that not all Americans feel the same way Tim Robbins does...if you still "don't get it" I can't help you, sorry.

Wanna explain that one to me? :mad: </font>[/QUOTE]Chill, mon ami...note the wink at the top of the original post...pay attention to the negative media Canada is getting for their present anti-American stance in the war with iraq...I am well aware that not all Canadians agree with the decisions of their governing officials...Canadians should be well aware that not all Americans feel the same way Tim Robbins does...if you still "don't get it" I can't help you, sorry.</font>[/QUOTE]I missed the wink, my apologies. Actually Bush has agreed to stop molesting Canadian citizens at the US border now, so that's something positive. (I think he realized that Canada is an intregral part of the US and he'd be severly screwed without us. Only if our own politicians would realize this. :D )

I actually do agree with Canada's stance in not officialy involving ourselves in this war, based upon the initial reasons given for it. I applaud Chretien (just this once :D ) for his stance on this matter.

Apology graciously accepted and thank you! [img]smile.gif[/img] *whew*! :D

I think if Canadian ships in the Gulf were farther away from the conflict that the Americans could see where Chretian could stand on firm ground when he refuses to allow POW's or former Iraqi government officials to be turned over the the U.S. (or the coalition, whatever) "if they happen to fall into Canadian hands". I guess we'll see how popular his stance is later this year? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Fox's Bill O'Reilly is on a hell bent campaign to get people to start boycotting products from any country that doesn't cooperate with the U.S. including Canada. :eek: Good gawd, if he gets his way, we'll be left with none of our own resources and dependent on everyone we snubbed for having their own opinion. He hates the fact that Chretian and Clinton would dare play golf together while not playing war with bush...I think we need to make room for him in the sandbox...check your PM ;)

Come on Timber... Arnold? what, he is one of three republican's in tinsel town? Home of the tummy tuck and private jet? I have heard myself actor's blacklisted in hollywood. Most republican's won't even say what they are.

Mel Gibson is a prime example. He did not come out openly about his Christianity in public until he had won his oscar and did not care.

Hollywood lives and dies by the sword. They love fame but there is a price. That price is people can embrace or turn away from you. They get paid to act and nothing more. Why don't we be honest? they are entertainers. They get paid to entertain. They get paid very well. We hold them way too high on a pedastal. They make a insane amount of money. Somewhere they get this idea that they know more then the average person and that is a sham. They know how to fake cry and play a role. For instance Julia Roberts did not graduate from high school. Yet to hear her talk you would think she know's more about how America should be run then anybody in our govermment.

I am not for government discimination. I am however for conscious choices. I am for real freedom including the right to support those you choose to. No one forces anyone to do anything here. Just for the record I have not boycotted a single thing. I still drink evian water. I do however support fellow Americans from doing so if they desire. This idea that they are "discriminating" is total bs. Hollywood is having a shock that the "peasents" got angry and made phone calls and e-mails to bussiness demanding they pull the plug. Well my friend that is democracy. No different then using it to rally support against Bush. No different then Jessie Jackson demanding a boycott against company x if they don't pay him. That is what makes us great. Hollywood is not above it and that just scares the hell out of them.

How many times have you said repug? People lump people together all the time. Let us not try to get too high and mighty here. It is a human trait. This idea that you can not be a patriot is sickning. Not everyone American has to be a self loathing conspirecy driven citizen.

We had troops in the war as well. There were a few Canadian troops assigned with US divisions that ended up in Iraq along side your men and women.

I thought Clinton was a great president. Sure he had some issues (who doesn't) but overall I think he was a boon for the US and I wish Canada had a Prime Minister like Clinton.

Canadians provide aid for Iraq, we still support the war on terrorism, but we question the morals and intentions of this war against Iraq. Now that there is talk of "who's next" it becomes a very scary proposition, akin to the old Spanish Inquisition.

You are American, so you are safe. The position of "with us or against us" reminds me of a certain figure from the late '30's, early 40's.

Check your PM. (not sure if it went through)