Just to put skunk right on a few facts:
1. The convoy was AMBUSHED -- by and entire town. It had no real route to "back out" as you mention.
2. Saying the SEALs and Special Forces get as much training as the regular British soldier is just plain rude. Our special forces are some of the best in the world, and you know good and well they are more comparable to Mossad, SAS, etc.
3. Jessica Lynch *did* go down fighting, and though she drove a desk she did have basic military training. I forget how many she killed before she got hit, but it was more than 2 or 3.

{EDIT} And Wellard, I will gladly discuss Ireland with you anywhere you like. Don't ask for a good argument, though. I am ignorant enough on the topic that I'd just be in the debate to learn. ;)

[ 04-15-2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Fair enough Timber. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Timber.. You may have been upset by the thread and in my opinion rightly, tho' I did laugh. However this comment I find uncalled for. I will not start an argument on this thread or even this forum on the terrorist actions in Britain unless you wish too. However I am MORE than willing to discuss (put you right [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] ) in another thread, perhaps in GD forum (?).

However to lash out this way was uncalled for and below your usual high standards. Yes you have hit a raw nerve, at least with me. Please lets keep this forum on Iraq, Syria, and Turkey ECT, not Britain.

[img]graemlins/hippysmile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=plum><font color=white>Wellard</font> - It was <font color=silver>Skunk</font> who brought the British troops into the discussion...not <font color=tan>Timber</font>. You agreed that <font color=tan>Timber</font> had a right to be upset and I do appreciate that. Claiming that our Special Forces units are equal to the "average British soldier" is a bit condescending to say the least. The conflict between Britain and Ireland strikes a nerve with you - fair enough - but I see no chastisement of the member who mentioned it first, only of the member who "lashed out" in retaliation.

<font color=silver>Skunk</font> - {sigh}I try to avoid responding to your posts because you often have a very condescending tone towards America in general and our troops specifically. I'll grant you the British troops are far more experienced in the tactics of urban warfare than our own troops - there is no doubt about that. And I also agree that the supply convoy made an egregious strategical error once they came under attack. As you correctly pointed out, this is the first time many of our soldiers have actually faced enemy fire...so a few mistakes are understandable (not necessarily acceptable - just understandable). But that wasn't what upset me about your post. What bothered me were the statements that our Special Forces units are the <font color=yellow>"as well trained as the average British soldier"</font> and that <font color=yellow>"virtually every British officer, from the blokes on the ground to those in the air..."</font> hold the opinion that <font color=yellow>“For the Americans, there just does not seem to be anything between peace and all-out combat,”....“Their military doctrine remains one based on the use of overwhelming fire power in every circumstance”</font>

I thought you were retired from the military, so I didn't realize you were still privy to the opinions of virtually every British officer. Then again, maybe the comment is based on your previous military experience and the opinions expressed by the officers you knew at that time.

Either way, I hope you can see why Americans would consider those comments to be somewhat arrogant and condescending in nature. I'm not accusing you of being "anti-American" <font color=white>(although I do wonder exactly what foreign policy you're disagreeing with in your statements [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img] )</font> . You're entitled to your opinion and if you feel British troops are just inherently superior to U.S. troops, then good on you (nothing wrong with being proud of your own troops). But I hope you appreciate the fact that all the members here have an equal level of pride in their respective nations and our individual posts should remain respectful even when we disagree.

<font color=tan>Timber</font> - I have to agree with <font color=white>Wellard</font> a little bit too. <font color=silver>Skunk's</font> post may have been somewhat "baited", but you could have chosen to ignore the bait. I know it isn't easy. I had to leave the forum for a couple of hours myself before I could "respond" rather than just "retaliate". But then I realized that <font color=silver>Skunk</font> did have some valid points - it was just his presentation that I disagreed with. So I tried to focus on the issues rather than the emotions they raised.</font>
</font>

<font color="#ffccff">Fortunately I am under no compulsion to follow YOUR rules. I just made the assumption that if you say a person can't comment on something unless they actually go there then YOU should live up to YOUR own expectations...then again, maybe you don't mind being hippocritical.

I also know that second guessing field commands is easy when you are safe at home in your own home.

I believe that this is the news site that some of the people here get their information from.

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/
</font>

[ 04-15-2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

LOL! Good site!

Magik you are Tartoor! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[ 04-15-2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Nice website, MagiK, but you should edit the link - there is a "< font >" text at the end that breaks it.

Oh, and after all the trouble caused by the original post and the recent France post, the fireworks will really fly now. Oh, well, in the end we're not going to save the world, stop any wars, or solve hunger with our posts, so I really have no dog [img]graemlins/dogrun.gif[/img] in the fight [img]graemlins/fight.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/evilhaha.gif[/img]

[ 04-15-2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

<font color="#ffccff">Errr you're welcome......Tartoor? Meriam Webster hasn't heard of it...is it good?

TL I fixed the link...I think...</font>

I found the word on the site you listed,

it is Iraqi and means "a man full of farts (hot air)" :D (not to be taken personally, just in the spirit of the site you listed)

[ 04-15-2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Sadly, yes. IMHO, it has gotten worse since the common perception that you elected a Good Ol' Boy as president, rather than someone suitable. No matter what Bush does in America, that worstened the hackneyed (and totally wrong) stereotype of the gun-toting loud-mouthed, not-too-bright American in the eyes of my compatriots. And we're meant to be your closest friends ... :( .

Quote:

I offer this thread up as further proof against every IWF member who has ever said "I don't see anybody bashing on the US." Even I, a lowly civilian, know to look at the rifle. Urban myth.

Yes, as do I, which is exactly why i declared it was probably an urban myth. However, given the current climate here on IW, where you need 3 links just to prove you took a shower this morning, I try to refrain from absolute statements of fact when I don't have links to hand ;)

Quote:

And one wonders why anyone ever had a problem with European elitism. :rolleyes: Sorry, guys, maybe someday I'll just learn to quit going against the wisdom of those who are my betters.

Yes, and quite right too. Damn colonials, always getting ideas above their station .... ;) </font>[/QUOTE]So the people from the south are frowned upon buythe entire world? not just Yankkess from the north?...how funny
Good ole Girl from Arkansas

Ah the Oprah Winfrey syndrome, random shouting of "woo yeah" by Americans for no other reason apart from being on TV!.