Well, we were trying. But, given Saddam's policy of placing military targets in direct proximity to civilian and religious areas, some civilian casualties are probably inevitable. Don't you think 12+ years of inspections and peace was giving it a chance?

<font color="#ffccff">Just wondering...ummm shouldn't this be in the War Forum?

As for standing up and being counted, more than 60% of the people polled in the US think Saddam needs to be taken out with military action, and GWB has an approval rating of 60 to 70% right now which is way above what you normally see for a president........But again, I think this needs to be in the War Forum, but thats just my opinion. </font>

You are right, MagiK, I shall stop posting on it until it is moved. Nice chatting with you, Lanesra, you are a civil kind of guy. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

No rational person WANTS war. Saddam has had sufficiet time to comply with the UN (not the US's) demands for getting rid of hiw weapons of mass destruction.. I mean no offense to any of the people here that are not Americans or residing in the US, but shouild Saddam be allowed to keep his biological and chemical weapons, I don't think he will be using them against Europe or Asia or Australia---he will be attacking the US.

I cannot see the wisdom of waiting until he slaughters thousands of Americans to try to put a stop to him. Let us not forget: the ball is in his court. He can very simply avoid war----comply with the UN resolutions, disarm and let it be verified.

I will tell you this. If anyone thinks he will stop at the US, I believe they are sorely mistaken. Europe let Hitler get out of control thinking he would stop and he didn't and then it was too late.

I believe the responsibility to avoid war rests with Iraq. Thet are not being asked to do anything harmful to their people, they are being asked to get rid or weapons of mass destruction. It is in their hands.

Since without force, the UN can't make Saddam submit, they can only ask. IF they can only ask, then he can say no, so he can choose to do whatever he wants. Hans Blix has been perfectly clear about the answer Saddam has been giving regarding disarmament.

It is completely about giving Saddam more chances. Although it's not the intention, it's the end result. He is the one who benefits from a lack of action. He is allowed to stay in power and continue doing exactly what he's wanted to for the past dozen years.

The sanctions remain in place, so his people continue to suffer, but he is able to illegally sell oil and purchase anything he wants. What's the next step? Lift the sanctions to help the Iraqi people despite the lack of cooperation? No force, lift the sanctions, then what? Withdraw the inspectors whether they've overseen a disarmament or not? Why did anyone bother, if nothing was going to be done?

If Iraq came out tomorrow and said it would be expelling the inspectors, and it would be reactivating all it's weapons programs, but then the US, the UK, Australia, et al say we refuse to act in any direct or indirect way. What would the UN do? Of course it could field the force, but would it? Would it really field a force the size and scope required?

Yep, definite War Forum stuff.

Edit - The final question was meant as an honest one for everyone and not as a derogatory one. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-16-2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Yep! Me too - on both points! :D

I liked Heirophant's hypothetical analogy a lot - even though I think you could draw some distinctions and argue how it's different. Nevertheless, I'll buy it - for a turnip. ;)

I certainly support whirled peas, peas in the middle ease, a giving peas a chance. :D But I also support ousting Hussein. I don't think I support baby-sitting the country afterwards and I think Iraq should determine its destiny on its own - within the strictures of the UN-imposed resolutions that is.

I must say that the budget for this war has gotten out of hand though. Sooner or later we're going to start having our taxes affected in drastic ways. Whether it be a renig on the proposed accelerated tax cuts or an actual backpedaling from tax cuts already made, or a huge tax whallop in 3 years once the budget has reached a 5 trillion deficit again. A nation, just like a person, must keep its fiscal house in order.

I saw 3 hours of budget footage on CSPAN the other day - all floor speeches and committee debates. The budget surplus is spent and every program that can be cut has been cut. Every new dollar investment in this "war" comes straight from my pocket at this point - either in this year's or another year's taxes.

<font color="plum">I apologize <font color="red">Lanesra</font>. In reading the thread, I came across a second post by <font color=palegreen>Heirophant</font> in which he expanded on his "school ground analogy" to say that the teacher's authority would eventually be undermined by their inaction and the rest of the "students" would look to the student who took the bully out to help solve any problems they had of a similar nature.

I mistakenly thought you had made that post and was arguing against the example because it would eventually lead to the "teacher/U.N." authority would be undermined - which it has.

I don't mean to ramble. But I did make a mistake and falsely attributed comments to you that you had not made. Again, I offer my apologies. I do not agree with your view, but I did admire your opening comments in this thread. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] </font>

Barry, I didn't see you there mate, I'm surprised ;)

I did actually run into a contingent from another board I visit surprisingly enough, but for once I didn't run into any of the usual suspects - you know how it is usually!

Couldn't believe it when I got to Hyde Park and it was wall to wall (or should that be fence to fence) with people.

I've had a hangover all day - and a huge bruise on my shin where I walked into one of those stone benches on Oxford Street - and that was on the way *to* the pub LOL. Ended up in the Dog & Duck on Frith Street.

Barry and Epona, it sounds like there was a lot of "after" fun! If I ever get to visit, I'll expect both of you to try to "out party" the other one. [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D