Yorick is of course right that the terrorists CHOSE to take their action. Nobody made them do it and of course they did not have to do it.

However, AboveTheRimYo is quite correct in his essential point that the historical reality behind the hatred which motivated the attacks cannot be ignored. Unfortunately, America has done great injustice and evil in the world, and provoked viscious hatred of the sort which would motivate men to perform such terrorist acts. It would be foolish to deny this truth. It must be faced openly and honestly, or we will only doom ourselves to more such hatred and such incidents in the future.

their side of truth won't exist if there is no one left to believe them... LOL

I am just kidding... what a horrorable comment

I really meant: so what? now it is time for action, stop the dogs first, and talk about who is to be blamed later!

IMHO Amerika is not a Big Bully
BUT they do have the tendincy to think of themslefs as the greater good and the perfect state
While in no country has such a big difference between rich and porr as the US (this is mainly cause the insanely rich people living there) Also the US is one of the most violent countries in the Western World

Also There was evidence Dear Bin Laden supported the attacks
But if there was evidence how come the arab countries aren't impressed?
Howcome YOU were not willing to give it to the Taliban to have a change to a peaceful Solution, it might seem Idyl, but if the change exist try it
And Why were WE our Goverment except Kok not allowed to see the evidence?

------------------
Behold he who stands before you

http://www.phpshop.net/images/rikard/rikard2.gif

Almighty (shared) Leader of the OHF
Proud member of the Ancients Club
The one True Necromancer/Blade of the Laughing Hyena's
Last of the Ancient race known as the Red Fluffies
Summoner of Bunnies

Official Register of the Top Posters;
"You can Run, You can Hide,
But you can never do both"
http://potgrond.netfirms.com/Eyes.jpg
I'm Watching you...

Spam Sentinal too...
OMG i have to control Cloudy...

there is always gaps between the rich and poor EVERYWHERE in the world. America happens to be the stand out example because their richs are the richest in the world. that is all. China is good example too. Violent is not the sole problem of America neither. If you live in China, you know that cops had done more nasty things than the worst mafia gang member in US.

bottom line: A country that being not perfect is hardly a reason to be accused

you proposed we change Afhag country into a peaceful nation, you must know that this cannot be acheived when the very foundation of their government structure is based on terrorism. their government is NOT ran by a group who represent afhag PEOPLE. their government only represents the benefits of small portion of Muslim. how can we negaotiate with these kinda people for the greater population?

mind you, we have ALREADY given the chance for peace by holding off the attack. if we wait any longer, it would be unconditionally compromising. it is a choice of irresponsible, because the longer we wait, the more lives are at stack.

when you play something as big as thousands, or maybe millions of people's lives, the choice is always a hard one. but you got to have the guts to do it. and in this case, it is only right AND works to take actions before bin Laden does something crazy.

bottom line: terrorism must be removed. and Taliban too, if they continuely harboring it

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-09-2001).]

Dio, anti-americanism is an ideology. I recently read an article in the New York times, that was reprinted from the London times about this modern phenomena.

The criticisms leveled at America are not altogether fair, and often not presented with the balance of positive action and motivation.

Take Somalia. The US went in for a noble cause. Osama and his ilk saw it as another invasion of an Islamic nation. There is no justification in his Wahabist eyes for American troops on Saudi soil - even if Saudi Arabia were to fall!

Anti-Americanism is actually quite prevalent within America itself, the article points out. The "elites" on the coast deride the midwesters and southerners, who in turn claim moral decay in coasters. But it's further than that I think. The Amsterdam News is one of the most racist pieces of writing I've ever read. Such material would be banned in Australia, yet it is published and sold as the voice of Black America.

I am at this moment in the apartment of a very good Af Am friend of mine in the Bronx, and am of the opinion that African Americans have shown incredible grace in the situation, but Press like the Am Nws only furthers division, prejudice and ignorance.

There are deep social divisions too. Money seperates many.

These anti-american ideas are taken to the world through film, television, comedy, and music. Obviously the internet is a recent addition.

These ideas take root in the minds of other cultures. Cultures that happily drink Coca Cola, wear American clothing fashion, listen to American music, and live as a result of American positive actions as much as negative.

There is the quote from a British? Prime minister that America, usually picks the right course of action, after attempting all the wrong ones. Or words to that effect.

The Church is an unifying equaliser here though. A leveler, a melting pot of races, classes and backgrounds. Thus I have Pakistani, South African, Dominican, African American, Anglo-American, Australian, Argentinian, English, Chinese, Arabic, and Jewish Christian friends from within the one church here.

Basically I'm stating that the accusations are a bit harsh, and not balanced. That unity and focus on that which unites rather than divides is important, and that honest self appraisal needs the balance of praise as much as criticism if it is to be heard, absorbed and acted upon.


------------------
I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/nono.gif No unleashing!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/nono.gif btw John, I really like your sig text!!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

------------------
http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mirac/.../BlackLich.gif http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mirac
I'd be Mirac, mighty mage of er... uhm.. er.. - Mirac Honorguard
Fellow Table Dancer of the Jerome's Table dancer group
Spell formulater of the IW peace-keeping force
Magical advisor of MiLady Lioness

[This message has been edited by Ziroc (edited 10-10-2001).]

Dio, excellent post. You often manage to say what I am thinking but cannot quite put into words!
In agreeing, I am not being anti-American - indeed I like many US citizens that I meet - but I do have strong disagreements with the way the US government attempts to be 'world policeman' - they create more trouble than they solve, and it is no wonder that this breeds resentment. I of course include the ever-loyal companion, the British government, in my criticism.

------------------
http://www.gldb.com/wayno/e1.jpg
Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.

Epona of The Laughing Hyenas
Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..."

i dont know much about facts and details but methinks that there is still imperialism happening all over the world now...

------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

Gosh! Firstly ill admit that im daunted by the prospect of facing all of these critisisms & challenges thrown at me, though any comments on what ive written are welcome of course. If i happen to miss replying to anyone btw, apologies- perhaps in my next post.

Firstly- yes, i am an Australian & quite proud of it too.

Before i answer specific questions however, i should perhaps outline my 'point' a little better than earlier since im dreadfully concerned that many of you may otherwise be left to rely on your powers or reasoning and deduction.
After first hearing of said terrorist incidents happening, i was immediately struck with the thought: "what has caused this to happen?", since concentrated - and likely planned - destruction on such a scale is rare in anything but war. The nature of the events too (suicide actions) was also rather "drastic" whats more, lending me to believe that perhaps those responsible were looking to draw attention to themselves or their cause as much as causing wanton destruction.
I can honestly say that American attempts ive seen thus far to examine the all important question of "why did this happen?" (as opposed to all but useless "how do we get payback?") have been extremely superficial at best.
For America to avoid repeated attacks of this nature, i would have thought it obvious to IMMEDIATELY begin examining every possible reason why any country could provoke such malice - and indeed such dedicated and carefully planned malice. Perhaps the US government has never considered its constant, and very often UNWELCOME and UNASKED FOR involvement in the affairs of other countries being a problem? Since naivety is something Americans are so famous for, its to be expected that their government may see itself as having a free reign to dominate whomever it wants, however it wants, with little expectation of ever facing the consequences. A pity that innocent Americans have been forced to pay the price, though the upcoming war is a wonderful example of the military tactic "creating a diversion", and from my perspective at least - very little is likely to change in American attitudes and international politics and as a result. Given this situation, i would without doubt expect many more terrorist incidents of similar kind in the future, with those posessing the least influence on the real issues naturally being affected the most.

Now on to my replies:
Yorick - Actually my history is a little rough, i believe i was using the roman empire as an example that all political boundaries & such are subject to change given enough time, or something like that. Actually i dont think the Roman empire was very "holy" either, with all of that throwing the christians to the lions & gladitorial spectacles etc. Strange similarities with televised lethal injections however...

Grand-Ranger - Actually im not judging you or anyone else, simply voicing my opinion.

Yorick - I dont believe i ever claimed that Americans were ever "responsible" for the attack, though perhaps i inferred that something of this nature was to be expected eventually. Interesting interpretation you have, though i wont give up hope on you since at least your an Aussie.

AzureWolf - Well said.

Ziroc - Yes, Australians are helping the US at the moment with these airstrikes (and no, it isnt a US payback campaign of terror since the US are having a war on terror and thus could hardly use it for their purposes could they?). Frankly i am completely against this, though our prime minster seems intent (as ever) upon bowing to the whim of every US president regardless of the Australian lives put in danger over something which has nothing to do with us whatsoever.
As for Bin Laden, there is certainly much circumstancial evidence which when combined with the American desperation to find a scapegoat as quickly as possible SEEMS like proof i am sure. Dont get me wrong, the man in question seems to be involved in someway, though my guess is that it will take months if not years for the real truth behind the event to be revealed to public eyes. At least after the next US election anyway.

Diogenes - Im glad that i seem to have at least one supporter in the room, and whats more i think your response probably clarified my thoughts into a much neater block of letters that im sure i would be capable of. Its refreshing to see that there are some Americans out there who havent been 'taken in' by much of the bush propaganda & such since the event itself, and have begun to examine the ramifications for the future, rather than cower in fear of them.

250 - "there side of the future.." that is an EVIL sentance that is just perfect as a mantra for my next BG2 ToB character (Sarevok's brother fittingly). Im chuckling.

Rikard - Very true point about the "evidence" in question. Many Americans have forgotten about the Iran Contra it seems....

250 - I agree that WORLDWIDE terrorism must be removed, though i question the lack of intelligence which suggests that America actually has the power to effect this. Such a 'gun-ho' American attitudes in the past have cost the lives of MILLIONS of men from other countries, with Vietnam being the ideal example.

Epona - Thankyou for bringing up the term "world policeman", very relavent i think.

Harkoliar - I hadnt looked at it in exactly that context before, but it really is a excellent point.

Hope this helps everyone, look forward to reading future posts.