It is absurd to deny rights based on the prejudice of others.

Know what I say? Black parents shouldn't be allowed to adopt or have children because their children will face racism and prejudice. Racism is for adults, not children.

I had a link to rights allowed heterosexuals but denied to homosexuals floating around somewhere... When I do, you'll have it.

Your logic is impeccable Illumina.

However, in modern society there is still a difference in perception between being black (which is utterly beyond the choice of the person) and being homosexual (which many would still believe is either a lifestyle choice or simply sinful behaviour).

The perception is most likely inaccurate of course, but I think it would be hard to argue that having black parents would get you teased more than having two men as parents.

Not to mention that the social impact that a father figure and mother figure have on children is pretty large - those with both inevitably do better in life on average.

And racism and prejudice may be for adults and not kids, but I'm really really glad I didn't have two men as my parents. It's not an ideal world and expecting children to be unaffected by this is not realistic IMO.

[ 04-23-2005, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

The 14th amendment, nor the rest of the Constitution, don't mean squat unless goverment works like the document says it should and people participate in there own governence in order to see to it. Right now there are many anti-gay or limiting marriage laws on the books that can be deemed contrary to the implied legal equality as a right by the 14th amendment. Some can also be deemed a gender bias complaint made under civil rights laws.

One way our government works is by people particpating to change the laws that are deemed contrary to the guidelines of lawmaking into to laws that are compliant to the constitution. It is checks and balances, and people participating in the goverment for progress by the ways it is designed.

You can't just shut-up and pray that government changes the way you hope. Thank God they didn't do that in 1776. It takes time, work, and particpation to change the government. It also takes time for people to change. It is the hard road and sometimes the disappointing road and the road of sacrifice.

Gay Frank and Gay Joe can't file a joint tax return as a married couple, but Straight Jim and Straight Tina can. This is the simplist and extremely common inequality out of the thousand+ that exist.

I cannot spell out any more clearly why I think gay inequality exists. Gay inequality by the law is actual- plain as day, and it is a bona-fide fact and as far as I'm concerned not a side-issue. It is as disparaging and as pertinant as the struggle vs inequality women endured beofe sufferage and that people with colored skin endured before the civil rights era.

I see equality up there with freeedom as key issues whenever governement is involved. More so Equality and Freedom are like absolute ideals that make up key roots of our government.

<font color = lightgreen>Racial/ethnic origin is not a choice. Sexual preference is a choice. Therein lies the difference.

@Chewbacca: Gay Frank and Joe probably shouldn't file a joint return anyway, since the reduction in taxable income as a couple is less than they would enjoy filing separately. All married couples should file separately.</font>

<font color = lightgreen>Racial/ethnic origin is not a choice. Sexual preference is a choice. Therein lies the difference.
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]Taken from a brilliant essay a friend of mine wrote on the subject of gay marriage...

At some point, and on some mental level it is a choice, whether it's due to sexual abuse causing them to shie away from the opposite gender (I know several lesbians who were abused and I feel in my experience from talking to homosexuals it is a contributing factor), a lack of a strong gender role model (this doesn't necessarily mean a single parent household), and many other cues that may push them one way or another. So it may not be a decision they are aware of, it may be influenced by environmental stimuli beyond their control, but they are not "born that way" and that essay Illumina posted seems to be trying to push the consequences of that decision off onto something or someone else.

I believe God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. If you don't feel that way, fine, I do. It doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't mean they should be treated differently. But accepting them doesn't mean condoning the behavior or portaying it as "normal" and desirable.

[ 04-25-2005, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

<font color = lightgreen>If sexual preference is not a choice, then it must be something genetic that forces the behavior onto the person. Well, if that is the case then the following are true: 1) homosexuality occurs in a minority of the population and 2) it does not result in biological procreation, hence is an evolutionary dead-end. In that sense, sexual preference is similar to other genetic disorders and I don't think anyone--not even me--would want homosexuality to be classified as a genetic disorder. Thus, sexual preference must be a choice.

On the other hand, if they say "it isn't a choice" then they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. It isn't their fault, etc. :rolleyes:

Were I homosexual, I would want to be with my partner and I would want my partner to be with me because they want to be, not because they have to be. </font>

[ 04-25-2005, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Azred ]

Morgeruat... Concequences? Do you mean discrimination or hellfire?

Responsibility for their actions, Azred? Consentual sex between two people? For shame. It must be easy for you to smugly talk about how you have your Belle and how gays have equal rights. Easy. And I'll accept that. But to sit there and smugly declare that it must be a choice is a slap in the face to gays and their allies... It must be refreshing to have your head firmly planted in the sand. Sometimes, I'm even jealous of that mindset. Bliss...

Honestly now, people. How the HELL can someone who isn't gay sit there and say it's a choice? Think about it logically. How would you know? And, more importantly, what kind of masochist would CHOOSE a life like that?

[ 04-26-2005, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Illumina Drathiran'ar ]

I also believe sexuality is based on a series of choices.
This man is an acquaintance of mine: http://www.syrogers.org/
and his testimony is in line with the stories I have seen and experienced in other friends and partners of mine.

<font color = lightgreen>If someone chooses to think of my opinion as a "slap in the face" that is not my problem. Homosexuality is a choice of lifestyle; if someone decides otherwise then, as my signature states, their decision not to accept a fact is also not my problem.

Most people do find themselves jealous of me at some point. If only more people would join me in being a rational realist.... [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

<font color = lightgreen>It is very easy: "it's a choice." As I stated earlier, logically if homosexuality is not a choice then it must be at best a mental disorder and at worst a genetic disorder. Honestly, I would want to accept either of those conclusions and I am not homosexual.
I have friends who are homosexual and they agree that with me that their lifestyle is their choice. Like I said, they are homosexual because they want to be. I respect them for being true to themselves even though many others disagree with their choice.</font>

[ 04-26-2005, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Azred ]