<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">Is that all jeez almost every job in my country is year to year contract work. It is hard to get anything but, even for citizens that is not the country but companies being cheap at not wanting to dish out employee benefits, so they pay a contractor more money but avoid benefits. As a Canadian you can't just go and work any job in the US unless there is a limited supply of workers. My field no problem easy to get a visa for work as in IT or engineering. You will unlikely get a job as a janitor in the US however if you are not a citizen. France probably has just as much opportunity but the rules vary slightly. Maybe there is no shortage of lawyers over there. Actually there is no shortage of them over here either.</font>

[ 07-29-2004, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

A fine nit to pick, and completely expected. Yes, there are a few select elected jobs in the US that require you to be a natural-born citizen. But, an immigrant and a natural-born citizen are not otherwise distinguished under the law. There certainly isn't a "US-only" class of jobs reserved for the purebloods.

A fine nit to pick, and completely expected. Yes, there are a few select elected jobs in the US that require you to be a natural-born citizen. But, an immigrant and a natural-born citizen are not otherwise distinguished under the law. There certainly isn't a "US-only" class of jobs reserved for the purebloods. </font>[/QUOTE]That's the point I was trying to get across. There will usually be certain jobs that are barred to individuals have not, by birth or naturalization, been accepted as citizens of a country, and other other employment restrictions with regard to temporary residents who have not yet taken out citizenship of a particular country. I suspect (without proof at this point) that France is not far outside the norm in this respect.

When you then examine how difficult a state makes it to obtain citizenship, and with it access to a wider job choice, then it's a whole different debate.

[ 07-29-2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Mouse ]

2 elected official jobs do not a "class" of "restricted employment" make. I'm talking about something more profound. I'm talking about the notion that only natural citizens can hold most high-paying jobs, including management jobs in most companies, including most perennial jobs with good benefits.

As I understand it, anyway. I'm glad to have someone from France to ask, of course.

And, I am making no value judgment regarding the policy. I wouldn't mind having it in effect here. Of course, the "melting pot" USA has less reason for it than a nation like France with a narrower cultural heritage group to draw from.

The only reason Obama gets face time is because the Republican Party in Illinois is in chaos. Plus, his chief rival in the Democrat primary got torpedoed with similar charges. This is the LUCKIEST candidate I have ever seen since Jim Thompson got a free pass as governor when some Larouchies snuck onto the Democrat ticket in the '80s

As for the "melting pot" idea, France is not exactly unmelted :D

Here is a brief overview.

Ah, I am disappointed, Timber. I expected statistics, not one single example. One can always find some isolated case of someone achieving a high social raise from a foreign and/or poor origin. ;)

But the reality of the "American dream" cannot be demonstrated without two sets of figures :

- statistics of social mobility (what percentage of people actually achieve the dream, reflecting one's actual chance of fulfilling it)

- figures showing the repartition of income in the population (the global expectancy of wealth of the population)

You can find the latter figures in the World Bank set of statistics here.

You can see in those figures that, concerning the repartition of income, the USA is the most inequal of the developped countries. So much for the American dream ... ;)

Not to say that the "French dream" is that much better, BTW.

As for the single personal counter-example : the guy I was dating back when I was a student was Italian. He came to France at 6, from one of the poorest parts of South Italy (on the east coast, just opposite Napoli), with his parents, who had both started working at 13. He achieved at least a Master in computer science (maybe more, but we had broken at this time, and I didn't stay in touch). And he didn't have to choose between French and Italian nationality before his majority, and even then, he could choose to keep both, which he did.

Well, fair enough Moiraine. As I said, I'm asking as much as asserting here. Let's try to remember that the main point of my original post was that the USA was not the only country where one could "live the _____ dream."

But, you didn't answer my question. Are there jobs in France that are only reserved for the citizens? This Italian fellow went to school there, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking about the workplace. I'm sure that if there are jobs that only French citizens can get, whether it be by governmental rule or corporate policy, you would be aware of it. Do such jobs exist or not?

[ 07-30-2004, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Obama was going to likely win regardless. But, I liked Ryan a lot and hated to see what happened to him. Obama actually said it was a sad thing -- he stated it was so hard for anyone to open up all the records of their life to the scrutiny that today's politics requires.

Ignoring the Kerry stuff nothing much there to really disagree with, (I'll get to that later ;) )Interesting the referance to God, Hmmm if those words came from the mouth of a Republican there would be screams from the mountain tops about ringwing Christian lunatics in the Republican party and how they wish to make everyone bow to their God and only their God. You know that is true. I also found it interesting the story of the young soldier, if the same would have come from the mouth of a Republican there would be crys of warmongering and saying the Republicans are calling anyone that disagrees with the solider are "unamercan". I couldn't help but notice he spoke of how his grandfather worked for what they wanted to have and acheived in order to make life better for his children. Not how the Gov't welfare made it possble for his grandfather to succed. Where are the examples of welfare/gov't handout recieptants succeding? What was that he said about divideing the country? HMMMMMMMMMMM, I wonder if John Edwards heard that when he gave his "Two Americas" dio-tribe.

Mr. Obama continues along the path he's set out he'll be ready for the Republican party shortly, and I for one will welcome him home. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img] :D