If we pay them 10 times more then they will clean our toilets.

Immigration is so bad. So evil. Why... look at America and Australia. So many immigrants there. Did nothing for the economies or multiculturalism or other cool stuff. They weren't built on immigration were they? All Aussies and Americans are aboriginal aren't they?

And fear. I love fear. I love to sit and wallow about how bad the world is going to be.

Everyone complains about the rain and worries about the flood instead of builing an Ark. ;)

COMPLETELY different situation that has absolutely NO RELATION to the discussion at hand. Or are you saying that the US and Austrailia were both densely populated when immigration first occured and that there is still a wide open door to anyone who wants to come, regardless of whether they have no college degree?

Oh, and as I recall, when the immigrants arrived in the US and Austrailia, they slaughtered/enslaved most of the native populace and stole their land... Perhaps these are not the best examples to give, eh?

[ 05-12-2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

Um... actually I spend my time burning Arks -- for a fee. :D

Is it just me or does "EU Enlargement" sound like something you need to see a doctor about?

Immigration hurts -- it's exceedingly painful to the generation that suffers through it. My economics professor told me there would be long-term gains, but other than crappy bilingual math classes taught in Spanglish, I don't see them anywhere in the immediate future.

Yorick is right about the diversity thing -- multiculturalism is and will be continue to be neat for a few generations. Until we all f* each other so much that we become one color, of course. ;) S'okay, I'm doing my part. ;)

COMPLETELY different situation that has absolutely NO RELATION to the discussion at hand. Or are you saying that the US and Austrailia were both densely populated when immigration first occured and that there is still a wide open door to anyone who wants to come, regardless of whether they have no college degree?

Oh, and as I recall, when the immigrants arrived in the US and Austrailia, they slaughtered/enslaved most of the native populace and stole their land... Perhaps these are not the best examples to give, eh? </font>[/QUOTE]Oh I think it's very apt. It's about time Europe reaped what it sowed.

Nonetheless, antiimmigrationism is one short microstep away from RACISM. You're a bigot Skunk. Antisemetic, vocally antiIsrael, and here vocally antiimmigration. What is so bad about Europeans - yes Poles and Czechs are Europeans - moving into your neck of the woods. They're human beings. Your distaste for your fellow man is appalling.

I brought up Australia and America as nations where immigrancy - Mexicans continue to pour into America, and Vietnamese pour into Australia - is STILL providing positive benefits to the two nations.

I for one am against borders entirely. You go down to El Paso/Cuidad Juarez. Over an imaginary line, you have millions who want to cross it, and other humans who won't let them. Yet the land features are the same either side of this imaginary line. Bizzarre when you break it down.

In any case, property prices and rent are natural inhibitors. Neigbourhoods in NYC change accross a street. You'll keep your rich western European life skunk, while the poor Poles come in to do the shit jobs and live in the shit neighbourhoods, and yet be grateful. Give them a ■■■■■■■ break and lose the elitism.

[quote]Originally posted by Skunk:

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny: [qb] Correction - they'll be doing the decent jobs without the decent wage, resulting in a downward wage spiral as market forces kick in. Business leaders are rubbing their hands at the chances to reduce their payroll overheads, ex-east block workers are rubbing their hands at the thought of doubling their incomes and the existing workers in established EU countries are going to have to accept pay cuts and wage-rise freezes if they want to keep their jobs after the immigration restriction periods end. :( You don't really think that a Polish business grad, software engineer or college educated kid is going to clean toilets in waterloo station, do you? You not really suggesting that a carpenter, bricklayer, mechanic is going to settle for cleaning pots and pans in a restaurant? </font>

This completely ignores precedented reality. REALITY. Skunk, you never post proof. Never. Your views are based on delusion.

The number of times I have run into DOCTORS. University trained specialists from India, Pakistan or the Philipines, doing "menial" work outside their chosen field is so commonplace it;s not funny. Australian wages haven't gone on a downward spiral. Even if they did, you have a government than can decree wage minimums.

Polish business grads - based on real PRECEDENTS - will take on whatever menial work they can if it pays more than what they would earn at home. Be that waiting tables, kitchenhand work or whatever.

Again, your elitism is sickening. What is wrong with cleaning toilets? It's a job. If it puts food on a table, and puts a child through school who cares? People are more than their job. Power to them Someone has to clean toilets. I'm very grateful to the Chinese lady that cleans the toilets where I work. She's happy for the money, I'm glad she does the job. It makes the world go round.

"It's a dirty job but someones gotta do it".

Skunk, I probably agree with you about the immigration issues more than I do on most topics. But, it's interesting to note your vehement compassion for the lesser peoples of the planet ends at your country's borders. ;)

The poor huddled masses. Let's help them!

Oh... but don't invite them over! Keep them in their hellholes! Let's just rant about injustice rather than actually do anything remotely resembling generosity of spirit.

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Which is what?
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Well for a start I'm not against immigration. But I am pro-immigration control. No economy can afford to simply throw open its doors to all and sundry without suffering ruination. You would be *very* challenged to find any country in the world that does not have such a policy - and to suggest that immigration control is racist is label every country in the world as racist - and as such, just plain daft.
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Read the forum rules before you make statements like that.
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Austrailia is desperately attempting to limit the flow of immigrants into the country using questionable tactics (see: http://www.refugeesaustralia.org ) as a way of deterring would be migrants. Such is the damage to the economy that an unrestricted flow represents.

The United states is also seeing problems from the ever increasing <u>uncontrolled</u> flow of Mexicans - esp. social problems (see: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...CLE_ID=25920).
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Or in other words, the immigrants can live in shanty towns on the edge of the city, cleaning your toilet, eh? How generous!
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If you are not allowed to work in your profession by the immigration authorities or suffer from a racist atmosphere where 'the guy from the eastern block aint good enough to work here', then yes I imagine that they will take whatever work they can find - but Europe isn't like that.
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Sheer pragmatism - it serves neither country's best interests.

Many EU states are already fighting a losing economic battle as it is, and workers are already been shafted - extra unskilled/semi-skilled workers are not required and professionals are only useful in small numbers for specific industries.

For the originating countries, the problems are even more severe.
For the countries to develop, they *need* the unskilled/semi-skilled workers to drive industry. And as for the professionally trained - the cost of training say, a doctor represents an *ENORMOUS* investment - which is then lost to the country when the worker leaves.
And so those left behind are further impoverished by the outward migration.

It's far better to assist those countries to develop with development aid (as indeed the US Government has been doing successfully for many years via USAID - resulting in an ever growing level improvement in a long list of countries [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] )

Better that than to have them move from one 'hell-hole' to another. Better to have doctors working as doctors in their own county than have all that investment wasted as they clean some rich person's toilet instead...
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And besides, there's plenty of people here who can clean those toilets, except they don't want that. Instead they choose to stay home and live on welfare, the easy way out. I have nothing against Polish people who go abroad in search of jobs, but they need to clean out our own list of unemployeds first, before they bring in any new FUTURE unemployeds. Not to mention the ever growing list of people who simulate handicaps and illness. Once that's all sorted out, and there's still need of foreigners to fill the gaps in the economy, they're welcome as far as i'm concerned. Otherwise i can't think of anything why we should let them in.