Actually, I think the small design of the MP5, its accuracy (for its barrel length) and reliability (not jamming) are the main reasons it has reached ubiquity. That, and the fact that HK has made so many varieties of the thing, including the MP5SD as well as the various front-grip handle, folding stock, attachable stock and other options. </font>[/QUOTE]That's right.

I'll say it again. I live in NYC and there are not enough gun laws. You can't just keep saying "there are too many" because I and the voting New Yorkers who support gun laws will always disagree with you.

As for gun related crime... ah.. as has been pointed out, take a look at the population size for starters.

You do understand of course that the city of Miami is in Florida right? The 'Mecca' of machinegun crime and coke smugglers? There's a reason the central location of the 1983 Brian DePalma film in Scarface is Miami, and why the main character is such an animalistic monster. Taken together, it's an effective, if rough cross section of the wave of Cuban criminals of 1980...

Crimes of all sorts skyrocketed. The Florida legislature, in all their wisdom, came to the rather obvious conclusion that there was no way the police presence could even begin to crack the shell of organized crime, so they legalized concealed carry. Crimes of the sort preying on ordinary citizens has gone down faster than the general US average. Taking that into consideration, it can be shown, with a town suffering from some of the most violent cultural clashes in American History (Haitians and Cubans don't get along with eachother, or the Puerto Ricans, or the Caucasians, or other immigrants abroad) that legalizing concealed carry works to the benefit of the populous.

But once again, I don't even have to debate this with you! The Gun Control laws in place are already illegal, and need to be repealed. The fact is, they'll NEVER get a majority enough vote to ammend the constitution that far, you just can't screw with the bill of rights. So they pussyfoot around it by passing 'ordinances' and things which skirt around the law by working over people's ignorance.

There are too many laws Yorick... They just don't do any good! Ever gun-control measure EVER enacted in the US or abroad (that is, in the world in General) was either a serious abuse of individual rights (some laws, if attempted to pass in the US and then enforced would have violated the 2nd, 4th, and 5th ammendments), or completely unenforceable. This is the case in the US. It's like I said, why not put a ban on Snuff Films, anal sex, gay marriages and alcohol while you're at it! We know you can stop those things by legislation! It might be important to note that no one has ever even found a snuff film...

You have to grasp the following concepts fundamental to this argument:

Guns, on their own, are harmless. It takes action to hurt someone with one.

All Gun Control legislation affects only those willing to obey the law. Criminal types will remain untouched by new legislation.

Expanding on that, criminals find new opportunities in banned firearms. Selling silencers, machineguns or ordinary pistols to users in various parts of the world, ordinary citizens and criminals alike are a lucrative market.

The statistics, statements by Organized Crime convicts (including guys like Joe Bananno) and other data, as well as the overall response, support these statemnts.

Nowhere where concealed carry has been legalized has crime with a firearm or such things gone UP!

It is indeed reasonable to demand that citizens carry in some small towns, where there isn't even a police force.

<font color=orange>Well, here we go again! Sometimes, I wish Gun Control debates would be banned like religous debates have been. It's the worst kind of thread for circular arguments. It just becomes this HUGE waste of time. That said CYA!</font>

CYA? You mean CIA! It's all a conspiracy man! They want us to sit around talking about guns and religion so they can steal all our weed....

oh God, that was bad, but I'm gonna post it anyway...

;)

Oblivion, when you are prepared to engage in discussion with an open mind, instead of blindly regurgitating others arguments it will be worthwhile discussing this with you.

Until then, get out of America and go live in a mythical land of gun control like England, Australia, France or practically any other western nation outside the Americas.

Then come back to me and tell me
1.How gun laws don't work
2.How we all live in a dictatorship
3.How crime is rampant because of gun laws.

Until then, you are hypothesising from a sheltered and somewhat naive corner the world, using others arguments instead of personal experience (as per Chewbacca for example).

Until then, adios.

Take a look at the numbers on violent crime after the gun bans in Britain Yorick... Then again, you won't actually bother to argue my points, merely relying on ad hominem tu quoque attacks (a logically fallacious argument, go to forums.firearmsmod.com and tell THEM they're wrong, you'll get a sound thrashing) to drive an emotionally driven viewpoint that concerns itself little with practical reality. Let me ask you this: Did the ban on alcohol in the US work? Even a bit? It worked for a little while, until the gangsters stepped up to the plate and took a few swings at being the brewers/distillers and distributors of America.

Oh, how do we live in a Dictatorship, maybe you didn't notice, but we're getting there...

Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, Patriot 2, (maybe they're the same thing, but the bits I've read were likely various versions, or Patriot 2 was just another name for the first, as it wasn't on scans or reprints of any documents I'd read) FCC, the new campaign finance law which illegalizes campaign speeches attacking a rival candidate less than 60 days before a vote... We're getting there...

Also consider that the right to trial by jury was on the table to be suspended for material reasons in Britain, with the civil rights of the British citizens a secondary concern.

If I were to move to any European nation, it would be Switzerland. At least they're decent enough folk to realize that human beings are at least as trustworthy as invisible government entities. Besides that, I could always use sound financial advice...

Yorick, you don't seem to understand... Laws don't protect people. That's been established. Human will prevents bad things from happening.

I've already argued (quite effectively) why there are too many laws, and the fact that those laws don't work because they're:

A. Unenforceable
B. Illegal
C. Aimed at the wrong target - Laws affect the law abiding...

Also, maybe you don't watch the news, but I do. I read the news. I read old news. I read trends. I read and watch and listen to a lot of information. You could say I'm a little more 'plugged-in' than most people. I've read as much data on the subject as I can. It all blatantly says that depriving citizens of their right to self defense is nothing more than a knee-jerk feel good response by politicians, and always has been. The results have been the exact opposite, and no amount of scare media or fact-distorting polemicism can change that fact. I'm not talking about Michael Moore, I'm talking about Dianne Feinstein, Charles Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton and in New York exclusively the founders of Project Exile. These people want to ban guns and increase police powers. If worst comes to worst, civil rights will be an alien concept of ages past... To these people, for whom civil order is the only thing that matters (when you're rich and powerful, rights of ordinary people isn't a necessarily high priority, securing your wealth is) the death of freedom isn't a big issue. To me, a man who is unlikely to achieve considerable wealth in his lifetime, I fail to support these ideas. I'd much rather have my freedom, thank you...

<font color=deepskyblue>Sounds good to me. The arguments are circular and the comments become very heated very quickly with members <font color=yellow>flamebaiting</font> or just plain <font color=yellow>flaming</font> each other in general.</font>

It's so emotional because there are so many issues involved. Gun control raises issues regarding safety, crime, freedom, governmental control, ethics, self-sufficiency, and civic responsibility just to name a few. Luckily, there are places in the world you can go if you prefer a different "flavor" on this issue. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] As long as some states have it, and some don't, at least we can choose to go to the place that suits our fancy. ;)

Yes. Barring changing the whole system, I'll move to Arizona... Barring that, I'll learn a new language and go to Switzerland..