I've heard this many times.. People calling the United States "the NEW Babylon" or the "Beast"..

Remember, the Bible says "An Eye for an Eye" and then at the same time, says "Turn the other Cheek". so there are contradictions there as well.




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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

Either we treat people in the way we want to be treated, which is presumably good, or we dont. Ya reap what ya sow..... There is some correlation from the same book. sow some bombs, reap some bombs...it works both ways. Sow some charity, patience, dignity, respect, and humility and reap some in return in your own character and in those that enter your persnal circle of life, you may even reap some people who dont have those qualities at all, but what better qualities to face them with. Sow the urge to defeat, kill, or hurt and thats what you'll get. Its not rocket science, its presented as plain ole wisdom as I read it. But I guess its open to interpretation, somehow.

I would like to see actual demographics showing what percent of Americans are "Christian" And do you mean the Blanket Term for ANYONE who believe that Christ was God's Son (Basically, the New Testament)? So does that Count the Jewish Culture in America, or even the Mormon? And we are not even breaking down the "Christians" into Catholics and Lutheran and Episcopalians and ... well, you get the picture.

Now on to the statement of Being Christian and Capitalism - first, the Definitions.

Christianity - One who believes in Christ/Jesus as being the son of God and who follows the religion based on his teachings.

Capitalism - An economic system characterized by open competition in a free market by which means of production are privately owned and development is proportional to increasing accumulation and reinvestment of profits.

Where does one find both? A minister who brings in a lot of people teaching the world of God and takes what he needs and uses the rest to build up his church - when he dies, he gives part to his family, and the rest to finish the new section on the church. Does this Man exist? Yes. I called him my Grandfather.

Do I think you can be both? Yes. Do I think they are "greedy, Capitalism Worshiping folks who "say" they are Christian"? Yes. Do I think it is possible to work in a free market and follow a belief system? Yes. My Dad has run a Farm from a 100 acre field to a 1500 acre farm. He used the money to pay for six kids to go to college and get degrees. He has taken care of both his parents until they passed away in the house he built for them, being cared for by the nursing staff he used that Capitalistic Business he runs. And he has never worked a Sunday in his life, reads from the Bible daily, and is a member of Church concil. He is also running the Church Fund to help finish rebuilding the old part of the church. So I think he is an example of how it works together.

What it comes down to is two systems - one of a beliefs, and one of economics. They can be inclusive or mutually exclusive, with some shades of gray inbetween. We are trying to look at terms that work great in theory, but actually looking at them in use, it sometimes blurs the picture. It is not Money that is the root of Evil, it is the LOVE of money. Keeping's Jesus's teaching in mind when dealing with money and not hording it just for hording's sake (Mr. McDuck?) is where Capitalism and Christianity can come together. It's not Money that makes it person good or bad, it is how they use it.

And don't invite Flaming. Nobody wants a flamewar here. Good debates with people of differenting opinions to test your views and convictions are great, as long as we stick to the ideals and not get personal.

BK

Very well stated Black Knight

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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

The bibles Karma? Grace is outside Karma. There is no forgivness in Karma. That statement has nothing to do with it. It was written under the Law of Moses.

Here's something. True generosity is giving without expectation of reward. If you're giving to get Karmic reward is it as generous as giving with the belief you'll get nothing other than the joy of giving? (Which can be incredibly rewarding in itself)

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-09-2001).]

Forgivness is a Karmic act. With Cause and effect of its own. You've made a bold statement with nothing to back it up, and little to answer my own thoughts I have shared. Obviously you think you know more about where I am coming from than you really do. Why dont you answer some of my statements with some clarity and insight, instead of picking at my metaphors, analogies or arogantly telling me what grace is or should be. As an individual, I will only know Grace for my self. step up, Step off, or step down. Im outa here til morrow anyway..

BTW You also imply that karma means giving with the thought of reward, only an egotist would see it that way, and would gain no joy that selfless giving brings. You dont know everything, particularly concerning beliefs/philosophies that arent your own, so stop acting like you do.

G'kar this is a needlessly aggressive post mate. I questioned your idea and concept and made no personal judgement on your character. I'd appreciate it if you refrained from doing so with me thankyou.

I stand by what I said. The grace of Jesus Christ removes a believer from law. From the law of Moses, from Karmic law, from Islamic law. The law still stands according to Jesus, who came to fulfil the law, not break it. Once a person recieves grace, they are removed from the consequence of law, or karma/dharma. That is the theology of Christs Grace, about which we are discussing.

I am educated as to karmic/dharmic principles, and I am educated on the principles of Christs grace. Whether you like it or not, I do know what I am talking about. You may disagree with my conclusions of course, but they are based on knowledge.

G'kar I don't appreciate your tone. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, don't go fanning flames.

Thankyou

Yorick



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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

Forget it, G'kar. Yorick knows everything about all religions. He has studied them all in depth, understands them all thoroughly, and accurately concluded that they are all worthless except for Christianity. If you don't believe me, just ask him.

You have an interesting question/idea/whatever here. Jesus never taught that you can't have personal wealth. He taught that whatever you do, you should follow God's will for your life. I am a Christian, I have been all my life and I will for the rest of my life, nobody can shake me from that. I am also an advocate of capitalism. That doesn't mean that I worship capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system, not a religion (well to some it is http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif). There is nothing in the Bible that forbades monetary wealth, so long as it doesn't rise in importance above God. Daniel in the Old Testament was a wealthy man, but he was a man of God. There are many men of God alive today who have monetary and materialistic wealth. Nothing is forbidding me from it. Personally, I pray to God that he'll aid in my gaining of wealth so I can live a comfortable, maybe luxurious life. However, I just gotta keep God first.

-Jafin


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Proud Citizen of the United States of America
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Proprietor of the Boogre Bar
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What the hell is this Diogenes? I did not say I know everything about all religions. I have studied many in open minded depth however. Hinduism, Buddhism and it's various strands, Taoism, Bahaism, Theosophy etc etc.

Why is this so difficult to accept? That a Christian can (shock horror) read another holy work!? That they can have an open mind? Reject other teachings on knowledge and not ignorance.?

I stated that Buddhism "works" did I not? However it is a path I don't wish to follow. This is not worthlessness, but disagreement. Rejection. I have articulated some, but not all of my problems with these theologies, and surely shown these problems to be based on the theologies themselves, not the "rightness" of Christian theology.

People can research law. They can become familiar with precedents, bylaws and amendments. They can specialise in contractual law, criminal law corperate law can they not? Why is it so hard to fathom that someone can devote time and energy to understanding many religious faiths in an attempt to find truth? In an effort to be certain ones own faith is truth. You have no idea the depth I have searched, the discourses I have entered into, and you dare mock me, mock my honest quest and subsequent conclusions.

Why do I bother?

I am disappointed by the sarcasm of your post. The vibes and attitude I have been recieving from you, G'kar and Silver Cheetah have flabbergasted me of late.

Stay in your little shell then Diogenes. Be blind to alternate possibilities and ideas. Remain in the comfort zone that Christians are always your father and their small minded agendas are all the same, and something you will refute to your grave.

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I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-09-2001).]