Well I actually did another test myself using the character editor.

I made 5 characters, a fighter, 2 monks and 2 samurai's. I edited the fighter to level 50 with 100 in close combat and 100 in martial arts. One monk I made level 50 and one at level 20 and gave them both 100 in close combat, 100 in martial arts and 100 in staff. For the samurai's I made one level 50 and one level 20 and put 100 in swords and close combat and dual weapons and staff and wand.

I gave each character 50 strength ( so I could see the original damage easier ) and 100 in dex and speed.

The level 50 monk was at 3 / 3 and 2 / 3 for attacks and swings with his primary and secondary. His damage was 10-22 and 8-20. With the zotaichi bo he was 3 / 3 with 10-31 damage.

The level 20 monk was at 2 / 3 and 2 / 3. His damage was 10-22 and 8-20. With the zotaichi bo he was 2 / 3 with 10-31 damage.

The level 50 fighter ( unnarmed ) was at 3 / 3 and 2 / 3. His damage was 6-18 and 4-16.

The level 50 samurai with murumasa and enchanted wakazashi was at 3 / 3 and 2 / 3. His damage was 7-28 and 3-12. With the zotaichi bo he was 3 / 3 with 10-31 damage.

The level 20 samurai with murumasa and enchanted wakazashi was at 2 / 3 and 2 / 2. His damage was the same as the above. With the zotaichi bo he was 2 / 3 with 10-31 damage.

Based on the damage of the fighter vs the monk I estimate that the martial arts skill gives +.03 min damage for each point and +.14 max damage for each point. The strange thing is the min damage for the monk is higher then for the fighter for some reason ( counting the +25% bonus ) and it doesn't make mathematical sense. Maybe the best way to look at it is that the extra 25 adds 4 damage to the min and max damage ( although that doesnt quite make sense, but o well ). The damage is obviously not dependent on level.

The martial arts skill also seems to give around .1 initiative per point. The monk had +11 initiative and the fighter had +10, which is strange but the best estimate is .1 per point. This is more initiative then any weapon bonus, even light sword. So an unarmed monk could certainly be the fastest character.

However the chance to hit gets no bonus with martial arts, only with a weapon ( +6 with light sword ). So this may also be a factor.

So what this means is if you have the patience to powertrain martial arts early in the game you can have a really nice weapon that won't be beat at least untill bloodlust.

However later on the weapons will surpass it, since martial arts is capped at the same number of attacks ( 3 / 3 and 2 / 3 ).

The monk does appear to get extra attacks a bit sooner but not by the amount I expected.

*EDIT I forgot to add that the damage resistance for the level 50 monk and level 20 monk both said 15%, which is too bad, seems that is the max from the monk class*

[ 06-17-2005, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: TinyMage ]

There are two main reasons as far as i can tell that the samurai gets less attacks.

Firstly i have to build strength/dex (monk goes dex speed early, strength later) so he can actually hit anything with low dual-wield skill in early/midgame (expert ironman).

Secondly dual wielding with less than 100% skill reduces the number of attacks/swings (or at least increases the stat/skill level required to get extra ones).

I think its more a case of samurai is late getting his extra attacks. My sword/shield fighter this game got his extra swings and attacks slightly earlier than the monk, but the samurai was quite a bit later (2-3 levels iirc, the distance from the start of trynton to the bluff anyway)

2 characters from my current party, no skill training, just played them as they played. Both major in combat, with a little side spellcasting. Both have a little in expert skills, but not a huge amount.

Samurai (lvl 21, IB, Ench Waki)
Str 100
Dex 100
Spd 100
Sen 35
Sword 79(98)
Combat 62
Dual 69

AR----45-----38
Dam---14-62---5-18
Att---2/2----2/2


Monk (21, MA)

Str 90
Dex 100
Spd 100
Sen 55
MA 94(117)
combat 88

AR----44----42
Dam---14-36---8-25
Att---2/3----2/3


Comparable attack rating, so just look at the numbers. Monk deals 2/3 the damage but has 3/2 the swings with primary, so roughly equal, and with secondary has 3/2 the damage and 3/2 the swings and more AR.

Samurai gets lightning, monk gets KO. Personally i prefer KO, but this is mainly a damage analysis.

And dont ask me why the monk has higher skills. Perhaps i just use samurai combat magic a lttle more, or perhaps its due to stats or the extra monk swings.


Edit in response to a new post: The fact that the monk was hitting around 6 times per round while my samurai was still only getting 1/1 +1 with bloodlust and 1/1 with his ench wakizashi suprised me enough that i remember it well. I think its a step thing. Samurai has 1.4/1.4 and monk has 1.6/1.6 or whatever, so it just looks like a lot more, with the rounding. Since the samurai does gain the extra stuff before too long.

[ 06-17-2005, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: GMK ]

I think in terms of damage per hit a Monk will never get close to someone using the Muramasa/CoC/Fang etc. However, the real payoff comes when you consider that Monks will get more attacks sooner and hit more often than someone dual weilding because they suffer no penalties but get all the benefits of dual weilding.

There are many additional benefits gained because of this factor. More attacks (due to not needing dual weild) means more practiceor a Monk which increases their MA skill quicker, as well as increasing their Close Combat and Critical skills quicker. More attacks also means more chance to utilise the critical and KO chances.

Comparing any early-mid game performance with a character using Bloodlust is a but pointless as well. Bloodlust is a massively powerful weapon. IMO, it shouldn't be available so easily so early in the game it's so good. A MA Monk will outshine any combat character until you start picking up some of the really good weapons towards the mid-end game. Even then, they'll hold their own in terms of pure consistency.

xfactor