What ever happened to "play the game how you want to and have fun with it?" That was (rightfully) plastered all over this board when I first got here. That's one of the great things about Wiz 8, IMHO-there are so many ways to play. If you don't want to use the "cheat training", then don't. I don't, because I believe that it goes against the intent of learning by practice. But that's just the way that I do things. It doesn't mean I'm wrong and you're right, or vice versa. And it didn't mean that my bishop wasn't powerful. Personally, I'm glad to see someone really exploring the pure casters and posting some strategies on them. No need to get all pissy about it.

I totally agree, think you should play the way you want, I think Kalk got a little bitchy when I commented on what I see are weaknesses in his build. Doesn't have to be the ultimate character, but there are some problems I see with his reasoning - but if he enjoys this type of character then that's all that matters. I am dissapointed though that he's making personal attacks, but oh well.

I think for the benefit of other people reading this thread though who want to have their characters/parties made to be more efficient and powerful there should be other view points brought up like mine.

I personally like to play for a long time with one party and train them as much as possible to be as good as they can be, to work and develop alot of skills per character. I'm in no rush to finish and have no need for characters who have only a few skills and max out faster.

I also think it's unfair to characterize any method available in the game to help your skills as "cheating", eg, casting knock-knock, or training with a monster that you heal to build stealth for example. I mean Kalk is basically telling you to "cheat" with Alchemists by mixing potions over and over again for unlimited $$, so "cheating" is in the eye of the beholder. Again though this is all personal preference - when I see ways to help my characters improve, I use them; to me only using an editor is cheating.

I know that I have mentioned this, but it's worth mentioning again. "My alchemist" is good and effective in a party when
1) You play the game fast, i.e. you end the game around level 17-21.
2) You don't make your characters super powerful early in the game with certain methods (I called them "cheat", and now I see people upset, sorry about that)
3) Noone else in the party is using the powders/potions etc.

Remember that I don't diss the bishop in this kind of party. I feel that a bishop has it's role as a magic specialist, and the alchemist should do what I described in the beginning. I like to have both of them in the party. With my experience how my bishops usually develop, I really feel positive about what this alchemist can do later in the game.

About "cheat" again: I, like many others, draw the line at mixing potions. After that, you can make super characters at very early levels with certain methods (I called these methods "cheats"). It was the first word I could think of, and it seemed like a natural choice of word at the moment.

Was it the "waste my time" part? [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img] I apologize, but you have to understand that I got a little annoyed when you said things like "...set a portal, or is that "cheat" for you too?", and the fact that you talked about the alchemist vs bishop outside the limits of where I described the alchemist. I am sure that a bishop wouldn't be as good as an alchemist if you want to develop it the way I want and follow the 3 points above. There are far too many skills to work on, and I know that, most of the times, more than 2 skills makes a non-expert character throughout the game (in fast games of course), and the bishop already has at least 2 skills to concentrate on (often 2½).

Have I been telling anyone differently? I don't think so. Everyone should play the game the way they want.

You are welcome. [img]smile.gif[/img] It's an old link that hasn't been updated in very long time, but it's still good. It has links to other sites too.

I feel I should add some information about my experience with pure casters and bishops.

In my last game, my two bishops and other members in the party, ended at level 17-19 in Ascensions peak, just 2 quests away from the final battle. At that time, my bishops had only concentrated on 2½ skills each, and they tried to cast magic from every magic element in every fight. Their specialist realms ended up with 80-85 points, and they didn't have any level 7 spell, because they weren't level 18 yet. An alchemist at this time, would probably be around level 18-19 and have level 7 spells, and be able to cast the spells much more effectively than my two bishops. This means that the alchemist would be good in the end of the game, and if you give the alchemist throwing skills, it can be good in the beginning too, casting high level powders like concussion, pandemonium, skeleton powder etc. It gives the alchemist a little more variety of spells.

When I played a magic party with mage, psionic, alchemist, priest, bard and gadgeteer, I developed the alchemist in a similar way, but I didn't give it snakespeed, which I believe will have it's uses later in the game when you face faster opponents. Getting element shield up fast is important for me. Usually, hybrids like samurai, ranger or ninja can't cast element shield very effectively in the end of the game (fast games once again), so they can't really replace a bishop or an alchemist or a mage in this aspect.

Things are going pretty well with my alchemist so far. It just hit level 11, and has 91 alchemy skill and around 35 in every other magic skill. It has 20 in ranged combat and about 65 in throwing&sling skill.

Right now the stats are like this:
str 35
int 100 (12 powercast)
pie 50
vit 50 (or 45, don't remember)
dex 60
speed 85 (something like this)
senses ? (can't remember, but it was over 50 at least)

I developed my bishops so that they would max int and piety as soon as possible. They still haven't maxed int or piety, but they are still level 10 (takes a long time to level up...). I have one bishop with 74 divinity, 40 alchemy, 20 wizardry, and another bishop with 70 wizardry, 50 psionic, 33 divinity. Their magic skills are around 30-60. Things are going according to plan.

I disagree. The Bishop has just 3 schools more. Don't even spend points in sling or armor before you hit the max in each realm and school. I use my bishop like an Alchemist right at the begining of the game with of course a psionic and a priest. Only the wizardry comes a little slower. The 25% will only help you a little in the begining to be able to cast a spell at higher power. This mini 25% never helped me to learn extra spells. A bishop well used in combat and adventuring (without the massive boring spell-casting-boosting) will be always ready to learn all the spells in each realm for each school when he hits the correct level.

I finally kicked out all the other pure casters for a bishop because he could do what all 4 other classes can (you have 4 classes in one for the same price). As for focusing on a weapon, bof, only the weapon bonus is important.

Only small drawback, bishops level slow. But at the same level a bishop out run any pure caster by light years.

Ice, I have already explained...Read more if you are not satisfied with the first explanations.