<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>They aren’t. I didn’t say they would be. If I had to choose between giving Bloodlust to my rogue/samurai/whatever, or giving it my bard… The bard would have to do without.<hr></blockquote>

Ah, okay. Well regardless, it's based on what kind of party you have and what weapons you're training them with then. I only have two characters that have been wielding swords (excluding my ninja); my Lord and Fighter.

Maybe it's just my game that's been generating up some godawful to hit numbers for Bloodlust. I had a nightmarish experience trying to make it through using that weapon. :( You're right, all the bonuses to Bloodlust do make the Demonsbane seem inferior. However, as I said in an earlier post, I miss about anywhere from 75% and upwards with Bloodlust than Demonsbane and the extra damage isn't just worth it.

Wow. I didn’t realize you were having that many misses. I know Bloodlust misses a lot… Heck, my current rogue has high eighties in both dual wield and sword and still occasionally misses a full set of three strikes. But you sound like you’re having much worse performance than that.

What kind of sword/dual-wield numbers do you have? I have to admit I’ve never tried using Bloodlust with a Lord before (I usually have at least one light, fast fighter type – samurai/rogue/fighter – who ends up using Bloodlust).

hey anhesier bush!!!
i wasnt talking specifically about you
i was just posting a comment in general for all who need the help

anyway yes i read ur post and u have a lord... a lord should stick with a different type weapons.
dual wielding maces is ur best bet tons of status effects late in the game, like paralyze ans KO. Personally i dont like to start a game with a lord. they are not balanced in enough for me.
what is good to do is start as a priest either a dwarf or a rawulf and then changing to a lord mid game
u will have a weak lord as far as strength but its cool because ur lord becomes mostly for its status effect ability and his divine magic
u can slowly build him into a stronger quicker fighter type lord with magik ability

ohh yeah as far as teh bloodlust, only ur quick lithe charachters should use it, sam's, rogues, bards

even if u now have penalties for dual wielding u must stick with it
so u gain points and can eventually dual wield with no problems at endgame
u must remeber people that in a game like this the endgame is the key
even if u must suffer a bit now u must plan for the best party development for the endgame

Great discussion! As somebody who has gone on record as saying that Bloodlust is the perfect weapon for a samurai, since they have great offensive magic to use in ranged situations, I'd like to pipe in...

First, as somebody already mentioned, the key to hitting your mark is your dexterity. If you're missing that much with bloodlust, start pumping your dex. Once mine got into the 70s (along with the obvious increase in sword skill during that time), I was having no trouble hitting with Bloodlust >90% of the time. Other factors include strength, and your close combat skill (one of the reasons fighters can get away with berserking is their bonus to CC).

Secondly, I would like to refute a claim early on in the thread that indicated that even with a dual-wield skill of 100, your effective weapon skill will be cut in half. This just isn't true. To get a TRUE indication of how dual-wielding affects your character's abilities, click on the little sword icon just to the right of your character portrait in the inventory screen. This shows all of your offensive attributes. Now de-equip and re-equip your wakizashi (or whatever you have as a 2nd weapon), and see how those scores change. If your attack rating is decreasing by, say, 5 points when you equip a second weapon, then dual-wielding is having a dramatic negative effect on your battle effectiveness. To remedy this, you need to pump up you dual-wielding skill. By keeping my dual-wielding skill close to my sword skill (say, within 10 points or so), I have noticed that equipping a 2nd weapon will only reduce my attack rating on my primary weapon by 1 point, maybe 2 at most. This is a fair tradeoff to me to get the extra attacks and the extra chance at crits that a 2nd weapon offers.

Finally, I may be the only person to actually be happy to see a bunch of successive misses. This means I'm trying something hard, which means I have a good chance of increasing my skills. Forget levels, skills reign supreme in this game, and with the extra attacks that Bloodlust gives me (both through beserking and through the massive +6 to initiative), my sammie gets TONS of opportunities to practice his sword and CC skills...

JMO, of course...

I had posted about the Dual Weapons cutting your skill in half... I was just re-posting what I had read on Spydah's Wiz 8 DB which seems to be very accurate from the general concensus... here's the article:


Dual Weapon Info

By Zzled (Vault Network Wiz 8 Board)

Dual Weapons: .005(at '100' bonus is 100 x .005 =.5) of weapon skill Attack Rating bonus for primary weapon.

.0025 of weapon skill Attack Rating bonus for secondary weapon.

note: percentage-wise enables all the extra attacks, swings, and attack rating you'd receive from weapon skills.

note: 0 skill gives 1/2 weapon skill bonuses for primary 1/4 weapon skill bonuses for secondary.

note: strength damage bonus for second weapon starts off 1/4.

Quick Summary: If you're using two weapons, try to make sure they come from the same weapon category (mixing Swords and Daggers is a waste of your skill points) and concentrate on skills in the following order: 1. The specific weapon skill; 2. Dual Weapons; 3. Close/Ranged Combat.

Other possible points of note:

1. The Dual Weapons skill affects accuracy both when using two weapons for Close Combat AS WELL AS WHEN USING TWO WEAPONS FOR RANGED COMBAT. Everyone suffers an accuracy penalty when trying to throw items with both hands. Thus, the Ninja may need to spend points on Dual Weapons as well.

2. Martial Arts (fighting unarmed) is NOT affected by Dual Weapons at all. Putting points into Dual Weapons if you plan to fight with your bare hands (or with only one weapon) is a waste.

3. Fighting with a weapon and a shield is NOT affected by Dual Weapons either.

I did a little analysis of accuracy when using two weapons, and it comes up as follows:

If you are using two weapons from the SAME weapon class (ie. a Katana and a Wakizashi, two Daggers, two sets of Shurikens, etc.), the skill that contributes MOST to your accuracy is the specific weapon skill (ie. Swords, Daggers, Throwing, etc.). The skill that contributes the second greatest amount is Dual Weapons. The skill that contributes the least is Close Combat (or Ranged Combat). Thus, you should try to max the specific weapon skill first, Dual Weapons second, and Close/Ranged Combat last of all.

If you are using two weapons from DIFFERENT weapon classes (eg. a Broadsword and a Dagger), the skill that contributes the most to your accuracy is DUAL WEAPONS. After this comes the specific weapon skill of your PRIMARY weapon (in this case, Swords), and is closely followed by the specific weapon skill of your SECONDARY weapon (in this case, Daggers). Again, the skills that contributes the least is Close Combat. Note that if you use weapons from two different weapon classes, you suffer a double penalty: 1. You need to develop more skills; 2. If your skill in one weapon is low, you are less accurate with THE OTHER WEAPON TOO. Thus, if you want to use two weapons, try to use two weapons from the same weapon class.

Maxing Close Combat adds about +16% to accuracy.

Maxing Secondary Weapon Skill adds about +24%.

Maxing Primary Weapon Skill adds about +28%.

Maxing Dual Weapons Skill adds about +40%.

Maxing Both Weapon Skills (or if both hands use the same type of Weapon) adds about +56%.

Note, however, that although a person using two weapons with NO SKILLS is less accurate than a person using one weapon with no skills... a person with MAXED skills using two weapons is approximately as accurate a person with maxed skills using one weapon. Of course, the person with two weapons gets more attacks and possibly more damage, which is why you wanted to use two weapons in the first place.

Quick Summary: Characters can get more attacks using Dual Weapons in the LONG RUN.

just my $.02 as a novice..

I gave my fighter bloodlust. At lvl 10, he gets about 5 attacks per round (2x then 3x or vice versa) and hits about half the time...but he hits for 35-50 each time...which I think is pretty sweet. I gave it to my samurai and he NEVER hit. He was only lvl 8 at the time....but he always missed. It was so frustrating I gave it back to my fighter...and I love it. I think it's fine in his hands....

Just my opinion..

"Characters can get more attacks using Dual Weapons in the LONG RUN."
I believe this sums up the issue. There is great benefit to dual wielding, if all the necessary skills have been adequately built up. The tradeoff is that it takes time to do this and you need to purposively do it through practice and not get side-tracked, otherwise it will not be worth it, and frustration sets in. So if you want your samurai to do max damage/hit right from the start, forget dual wielding... but he won't be as powerful as a fully-developed dual wielder in later levels.

Personally, I've come to accept that my samurai will hit like crap during his first 10 levels or so. But that's fine with me, I'm willing to wait and patiently build up his skills because I know he'll eventually kick butt in mid-levels. I guess it also depends on party composition. I have a fighter to tank, so I can live with the initially poor hitting ability of my Samurai. I think of it as an investment that pays off in the long-term.

That's Annheiser Busch :D

Anyway, my Dexterity is 87 last time I checked and Dual Wield is about 60ish right now, but that isn't an issue since I've already stated that when switched to a different weapon (same skill) the results were vastly different. Must be my game and its messed up random function.