So what would you choose? [img]smile.gif[/img] I think I would need to think hard about it, being mortal is a bit of a gamble and would be the brave choice I guess, but being elf is very appealing! </font>[/QUOTE]Thing is, Men have a lot going for them in Middle-Earth. Men can sleep and dream, and when they do so no one knows where they go. This capacity to look beyond the real world is something Elves cannot even concieve; Elves are rooted so firmly in the physical world that they lack the spontaneous imagination and odd power Men have. Though it doesn't become apparent in the films or the book, in the old days Elves were in awe of - and envied - Men for their ability to affect the world in all sorts of unexpected ways.

Plus, the soul of a Man does not go to the Halls of Mandos when the man dies... no-one really knows where they go. This was a terrifying prospect for e.g. Morgoth, the Great Enemy, who was furious and intimidated at the thought that there would always be a part of Mankind he could not control or destroy. He was more scared of Men than he was Elves. This is one reason why one of the first things Sauron decided to do when building his own armies was: Get Some Men.

Go for Men every time. Would you truly want to be part of a race that, in so many ways, has been on a downhill slope for at least 10,000 years or more?

I wouldn't go so far as to classify the Numenoreans as a "middle race" between Elves and Men, simply as a sort of "High Men" that enjoyed many of the advantages of Elvenkind, while still remaining mortal and bonded with the fate of Men.

As for "half elves being rare and not allowed to remain half elves," flip back to the section in <u>The Fellowship of the Ring</u>, just after leaving Moria. The Fellowship crosses a particular stream, and Legolas sings a song about the Elf-maid it was named after....the gist of it was that she left, journeying downstream toward Anduin and the sea....and then in <u>Return of the King</u>, Legolas meets the Prince of Dol Amroth (whose lands just happen to be situated near the mouth of the river Anduin), and salutes him, because it was clear that "the Prince had Elven blood in his veins." This line of Dol Amroth was also marriage-material for the Stewards of Gondor: Either Denethor or his father Ecthelion married their Princess--implying that they may have been trying to strengthen their dwindling lifespan by infusing some more Elvish heritage into the line.

"It's the divine ancestry of the Numenoreans and their descendants that sets them apart, not their Elvish roots." Since the two are rather inseparable, it's rather difficult to make any sort of claim on this point. One thing that can be said is that neither divine nor Elven blood can guarantee a person's greatness: Take a look at Elladan and Elrohir. As Elrond's sons, they were about 40 generations closer to their archmother (Melian) than Aragorn, and they've also got some very strong Noldor roots in their grandmother, Galadriel....and yet everywhere they go, they're riding Aragorn's shadow the whole way. And what about Arwen? All she did in the entire story was sit around and look pretty. Even Glorfindel was a bad-ass mofo compared to her.

As for the choice between Elf and Man, it would seem that the balance is fairly equal on both sides: If one were clearly better than the other, both Elrond and Elros would have chosen the same one. As for Elves envying Men over their ability to dream and the like, don't forget how much Men envied Elves their immortal lifespan, not needing to sleep, and of course thier ability to travel to Valinor. On the "green with envy" scale, I would say that the Men are definitely greener. Also recall the difficulty of Arwen's decision to bond herself to Aragorn's fate; she was sundering herself from family and friends, sure, but she was also giving up Eternity as well.

Just a few points I wanted to bring up.

Numenorians aren't Numenorians because of any sort of ancestory with the maia or the elves. They were all normal men, but were taught by Eonwe, the Herald of Manwe.
From the Silmarillion..."To the Fathers of Men of the three faihful houses rich reward was also given. Eonwe came among them and and taught them; and they were given wisdom and power and life more enduring than any others of mortal race have posessed."

I realise that Aragorn would have had some very distant trace of Elvish and Maia Blood, but only because Aragorn was a direct descendant from father to father of Elros, the first king of Numenor. Most of the Numenorians could not boast this heritage. Most were normal men who went to war against Morgoth and fought on the side of the Valar and the Calaquendi from Valinor. For that they were given these gifts.

You mention that Elladan and Elrohir were just riding and Aragorns shadow and that Arwen was fairly useless, because their heritage alone doesn't make people great in middle earth, which i totally agree with. You do say however "even Glorfindel was a bad-ass compared to Arwen." IGlorfindel was a bad-ass elf altogether, he had been to Valino, so had seen the light and was one of the calaquendi. They don't get much more badass than this, except for the Noldor that had seen the light of valinor too like Galadriel. Even Elrond wasn't sposed to be very powerful, he was a lore master and healer and also had some very strong roots, but not very old "in elf terms." Not powerful compared to the old of the Noldor anyway [img]smile.gif[/img]

If I had to choose tomorrow I would go elf I think. At least that way you know what is coming to you. However, no human brain or spirit could last long with an elves immortality, I think we would get bored far too fast! Humans are always looking outside the world and pushing it's boundaries, whereas elves never think that way and probabally can't even comprehend it. There power comes from an affinity with the world and nature, where as humans go with it or push against it to suit their needs.

I was intrested to read how you viewed The Prince of Dol Amroth [img]smile.gif[/img] I guessed he was a human, perhaps Numenorian that had some elven blood in him and his people too, but it wasn't explained too well...just like Tom Bombadil remains a bit of an enigma [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-15-2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Devv ]

Oh, I know about Imrahil and his folks alright. There's nothing special about him, he's a Man with a beardless chin. I wouldn't call him half-elven; the blood's much more watered-down than that. The folk of Dol Amroth are just some Men with some quirky genetics - definitely descended in some way from Nimrodel the elven-maid, but not directly. Aragorn is not like Imrahil, however.

I think it's not to do with this elven 'trait' that the Steward line married into the Dol Amroth line, but for the fact that, apart from Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth was most likely the mightiest and fairest of the Gondorian realms.

One thing that puzzles me, however. Where does it say that Men envied Elves? Men honoured Elves in the First and Second Ages, and mistrusted them in the Third Age, but I don't believe mankind envied the Elves at all. Anyone who had the lore to make an informed choice could see that to be an Elf was to have a sorrowful existence. The Elven race sums up one of the key themes of Lord of the Rings; loss, and dealing with loss. The Elves put a brave face on the absolute tragedy that is their history and destiny. I'd want no part of that.

As for Elladan and Elrohir, you're being a bit harsh, aren't you? The brothers were born in the Third Age, at a time when Elvenkind pretty much stopped making war and concentrated on defence of what little they had. Elladan and Elrohir spent time wandering and aiding the Rangers of the North for almost 3000 years; and when it comes to the crux, they are two of only a handful of Elves that fight Sauron directly. They're in Aragorn's shadow because, quite frankly, Aragorn is the Epic Hero of LotR and EVERYONE is in his shadow. Aragorn is a throwback, a fluke of generational breeding that creates a man destined to be a hero and a king. You can't fairly compare anyone in LotR to him.

And Glorfindel... this is THE Glorfindel, slayer of a Balrog, who came back from Valinor to Middle-Earth of his own choice. He has passed through death and come back - he has suffered to such a cathartic extent that he cannot and will not fight any more (reminiscent of Frodo after the Ring is destroyed). Even then, because of who he is and where he's been, he has power - at the battles to protect Imladris in the Second Age, Glorfindel squared up to the Witch-King, Lord of the Ringwraiths, and simply scared him off. When people say, "Even Glorfindel couldn't do this," (and they do) they mean it.

Bit by bit Ill reply to that last post ;)

First off, men did envy the elves, they envied their immortality. This is the reason for the Downfall of Numenor. The men of Numenor became proud and it ended up with Sauron corrupting most of them, so they made an assult on the undying lands in an attempt to get their hands on immortal life like the elves. The problem the proud Numenorians had was that they were so talented and skilled, so they built so much fien stuff, but then they still had to die and leave it all behind.

About Imrahil, I believe that the steward line wanted to wed into that line to strengthen their blood line. A lot of Tolkiens writing is about the waning of the Numenorians and how a lot of the ruling families would shun marriage outside of other Numenorian families. The stewards of Gondor had waned a lot, Faramir was another genetic throwback like Aragorn, but Boromir and Denethor were almost totally normal men.

About Elladan and Elrohir, I don't think anyone was being harsh, but they were never epic characters, that's all that people here have been saying. I am a bit sad we didn't get to see any of them or the other rangers in the movies yet :( I have seen a few previews too of the 3rd and I didn't see any other Rangers :(

Next, about Glorfindel. Is it really the same Glorfindel that fought the Balrog when Gondolin was destroyed? I always thought it was a different elf with the same name, but powerful none the less because he had lived in the undying lands. I really don't know here, so I am asking are you sure? [img]smile.gif[/img]

According to the Silmarillion, Glorfindel of Gondolin is killed in the fight with the Balrog. Both of them fell into the abyss off the cliff, and the king of the Eagles retrieved Glorfindel's body and it was buried in the mountain pass.

Getting back on topic [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have to agree that some of the HLAs are too powerful. Especially the Thief HLA's seem to focus on making them more like mages. Instead, they should have given them abilities that strengthened their thief skills--Assasination is a good example. I like the idea of giving the theif an ability to hide in shadows in the midst of combat. It would allow a thief to perform a backstab and melt back into the shadows. Another idea would be a HLA that allows the next strike (must be a backstab) to ignore stoneskins and similar magical protections. Or a knock-out attack that when successful renders a backstab victim unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds but does not get the backstab multiplier to damage (knock out effect is able to work through any spell prots, but damage can be avoided). Another HLA could be a use of their detect illusions/traps skill for a few rounds that does not interfere with hiding in shadows. So they could be sneaking, but still see traps or invisible creatures.

The idea of the theif classes is stealth and devastating surprise attacks. The abilities for them to do major trap damage, and become another spellcaster don't seem to fit.

For the spellcasters, I agree that some of the HLAs should do less damage, and for warriors, the WW and GWW should be nerfed. Either by adding more THACO penalties or by adding damage penalties--you make super fast attacks, but have to sacrifice putting full force into each of them. Make each attack do 2/3 damage.

Devv, I quite agree with most of your points. I'll explore these a bit more, though:

As Olorin pointed out, there seem to be <u>two</u> Elves named Glorfindel. Either Tolkien suffered a bit of laziness and forgot that the name had already been used, or the 2nd Glorfindel was named after the first. Since the name means "golden-haired," it could quite logically be applied to any number of Elves. As to whether the Glorfindel in LotR has been to Valinor or not, I would probably say no. He is of the Noldor, and is described as an Elf-Lord, but he was probably born in the 2nd Age, long after the Trees were killed.
As for Elrond not being powerful, I must point out that his power was great indeed, but only extended in a very quiet way: Secrecy and preservation for his lands and his people, very similar to Galadriel. The fact he is held in such high esteem by all peoples, despite doing nothing more exciting than serving as a Herald for the Last Alliance of Elves and Men, says a lot. So does the fact that he was selected to hold one of the Three Rings.

Last night, I dug out my copy of LotR again, to make sure I hadn't made an ass of myself over Nimrodel & Dol Amroth....it seems that there was a whole community of Elves in the region of Belfalas, which was a popular place to take ship to Valinor, very like the Grey Havens. Apparently, with a good-sized population of Elves (of all stripes) located in the middle of a large Numenorian kingdom, a fair amount of interbreeding occurred. After a few generations, the resulting offspring were extremely Mannish (Boromir could not be prejudiced against Elves with a Half-Elven Prince defending Gondor's right flank), but still carried enough evidence of their Elven heritage for Legolas to recognize it an Age later.


Hold on a minute--you make it sound like the entire race is whimpering and curling up into a fetal position to die. The only way in which the Elves are fading is that not only is the Enemy causing them to die (an incredible and irreparable loss), but it's even killing them faster than they can reproduce. They have no choice but to abandon the sinking ship that is Middle-Earth; I'm sure their cities in Aman are quite prosperous, and I'd hardly call that a "sorrowful existence."

If I had to pin down a central them of Tolkien's works, it would be that ALL things, Elven or not, diminish with the passage of time, and the present can never attain the glories of the past. The Trees can never bloom again, Man shall never again know the like of Beren or Turin, forever gone is the glory that was Khazad-dum. Morgoth was exiled and replaced by Sauron, whose destruction signaled the departure of the Istari, as well. The greatest single Evil remaining in the world would be....Shelob, perhaps, unless there's another Balrog somewhere, and the greatest left to oppose them would be....Bombadil, perhaps, or Fangorn. All things grow small.

Ah, but instead of a choice between Elf and Man, let's make it between Noldor and Vanyar. The Vanyar remained in Valinor all through the First Age, strumming their harps, and only set foot on Middle-Earth just long enough to help in throwing down Utumno and laying open its pits. The Noldor, however, fought a many long and bloody wars against the Enemy, with deeds fell, fair, and foul, with deeds of epic honor, courage, and treachery. The Vanyar spent more time singing, but the Noldor had a lot more to sing about. Give me Noldor any day.

[ 09-16-2003, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

I disagree. Shelob is pretty thick, she damn near commited suicide by impaling herself on Sting. Shelob cannot match anything like the destruction caused by the orcs. Although a great many of the orcs were killed at the gates of Mordor, it would be all but impossible to kill of their entire race. Look what they did to the forrests, burning and hacking away at them. Also, men would be a greater evil than Shelob. Shelob is greater than any single man or orc, but she (he?) is only one, the race of men is legion, the orcs were probably reduced to very few, but they will more than likely survive.

As for the greatest left to oppose them... the Numenor are a dying, if not dead race, the elves have all left, hobbits would be worse than useless in a fight. As Gandalf (i think) said, "It is with men that our hope lies," although i would class men as the greatest evil left, they aren't all bad.

Six, the nly thing I know of in LOTR that describes Glorfindel a bit is in the beginning of book 2 of the fellowship of the ring when Gandalf describes the elf lords in Rivendell at the time,
Gandalf: "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the seen and the uneen they have great power.
Frodo: "I thought I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?"
Gandalf: "Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes."

Make of this what you will, but I reckon he is one of the surviving light elves from Valinor who came back with the Noldor in their exile. I would choose Noldor and their struggles too if I had to choose to be an elf [img]smile.gif[/img] Is that coz were humans and we desire power hehe?

As for the evil left in the world, it wouldn't be the orcs. Of course when Sauron died they lost all sense of purpose and didn't have any will to continue. They were fuelled at first by the will of Morgoth, then by the will of Sauron. Without either present, the orcs were lost. Men would have to be mans worst evil and at the same time, it's best hope. That kinda relates to our world I guess.

[ 09-16-2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: Devv ]

A whole bunch of stuff there! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm not sure if it was ever envy as such that prompted the revolt of the Numenoreans against the Valar. You have to remember that the Numenoreans were still fairly decent folk at heart; Sauron instead skewed their perceptions of the Valar, and made the Valar seem uncaring, unjust, selfish and cruel. The spin there is that it is not that the Numenorean king coveted immortality, but that the Numenoreans came to believe that it was wrong that they should not have it. And, in the end, the Valar struck first, and the war was over far too swiftly for any real declarations of intent.

Denethor a normal man? Gandalf disagrees.

"He is not as other men of this time, Pippin, and whatever be his descent from father to son, by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him; as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir who he loved best." - Return of the King

As for the slow decline in 'noble blood' in Gondor:

"... the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dunedain became more mingled with that of lesser men... this mingling did not hasten the waning of the Dunedain, as had been feared, but the waning still proceeded... for no doubt it was due above all to Middle Earth itself, and to the slow withdrawing of the gifts of the Numenoreans after their downfall."

As for Glorfindel, I am reasonably sure. It's a debated subject. I sit on the 'yes' side of the fence. [img]smile.gif[/img] There's little evidence either way...