Well, some findings.

I must now regretfully confirm that Area of Effect spells will not cross the perimeter of the arena, even if their center is outside the pit. This includes Teleport Field, so the guy who said that he Telly'd Faldorn outside the pit to be slain by the rest of the party must have been playing with Multi-Strongholds on.

Otiluke's Resilient Sphere does indeed Hold the target, even with Free Action applied. Wish they'd thought to mention this in the spell description. Bugger!

That I find odd--Faldorn has permanent Physical Mirror (to counter the Guard cheese), which, if it works like the Shield of Reflection, bounces the damage back to the Trap-setter....so Faldorn should have been unaffected, but your Thief should have died. Interesting. I wonder if those Traps could be set outside the arena?

Yeah, I wasn't exactly expecting reports of people beating Faldorn honorably. And about that Kensai(12)->Druid who claimed to have managed to pull it off without cheese: The first time I fought Improved Faldorn, I picked up the staff, hit her with it, and got "Weapon Ineffective." And the last time I fought her, I couldn't even find the staff at all. I did like the guy mentioned and tried leading the Dread Wolves (not Spirit Animals, sorry, my bad) around, but no "Item here" pointer could I find.

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My objections:

1) Improved Faldorn forces the player to include Cernd and/or Jaheira as a permanent member of the party, or to be a Druid on their own account, which is an unreasonable requirement for a major quest.

2) Improved Faldorn forces the player to wait until the very final stages of SoA (after Improved Bodhi, maybe even after Watchers' Keep) before they can even begin to stand a chance against her, which is absolutely ludicrous.

3) Improved Faldorn cheats in so many ways that I can't even number them. Among the most offensive ways are the fact that she attacks while casting spells, the fact that she casts Nature's Beauty (and yet is immune to it herself), the fact that she has buffs and immunities not available to Druids of any level, and the fact that when she enters combat, all of her buffs are cast for her for free (whether she had them memorized or not) and in 0 time.

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I have previously said that Weimer writes code well, but doesn't know jack about game balance. I think his own words of "I am getting the impression from many sources that Imp Faldorn is, shall we say, a bit strong," reveal just how out-of-touch he is. Perhaps when he was playtesting the difficulty of Improved Faldorn prior to release, he was doing so with an AntiPaladin->Mage under All-Strongholds.

[ 07-02-2004, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

That I find odd--Faldorn has permanent Physical Mirror (to counter the Guard cheese), which, if it works like the Shield of Reflection, bounces the damage back to the Trap-setter....so Faldorn should have been unaffected, but your Thief should have died. </font>[/QUOTE]I imagine it's like setting traps for Kangaxx, who also relies on Physical Mirror - even the auto-buffing scripts take a second to fully kick in, which is longer than it takes the trap to go off.

I'll have to try that - then I'd feel less cheesy at least (although I did rationalize it to myself along the lines of "well, it's not like I couldn't just climb down into the pit & prepare the battlefield"). It's still relying on HLA's, though, & there should be an SoA-only way of beating her.

I noticed there's a new One Day NPC out - a Druid at that, so I imagine I'll have an opportunity to try some new tricks on Faldorn shortly. I agree about it forcing you to take a Druid along now - maybe weimer could make it so, if you don't recruit Cernd, he gets Imoen's Belt in that fight, so there's a non-cheesy way of just bypassing the whole thing.

- Imrahil

Euh... You're starting to make a believer out of me. =/ A Druid could possibly get high enough of a level to have Dispel Magic succeed, but it'll be a job trying to get it to finish. Physical damage is nigh impossible (damn Ironskins), not to mention the sheer crappiness of a Druid's thac0 and ApR (well, our Druids --;; ) and the fact there is only one weapon usable. Elemental damage, similarily, will not be of much use unless you can Dispel Magic. Not to mention NB is neutralized... And damaging her is going to be a bitch as well, because of Regeneration. Now, I cancel out even Spirit Troll's Regeneration by using a good ole Slow. But Druids don't have slow, and in this fight, nothing could give slow.

Here's what I could gleam from CTRL-Q'ing Faldorn into my party:

Fire and Cold both heal her, with a res level of 127%. 100% Electricity is also on, making almost all elemental attacks point/useless. thac0 of 2, with an ApR of 4. Without any armor, she's going to be hitting every time, with 24 damage every hit. Unless CTRL-Q makes all buffs permanent, she gains all of the bonuses of the spells permanently, as none of them were dispelled after resting. 40% MR, and the normal effects of Armor of Faith.

Bloody hell... She beat a Deva one on one. She draws with an Elemental Prince (it got unsummoned). None of them did any damage to each other.

Well, I suppose we should be glad weimer didn't Imp. Haste her as well. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 07-02-2004, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

I do not disagree that Improved Faldorn is too difficult (or, impossible) to beat. I do not disagree that Faldorn's stats/abils are outside the normal limitations.

I like Six's reviews (except the part when he said Weimer is out-of-touch... in the Weimer quote you gave he appears to be sarastic in saying she's "shall we say, a bit strong"). Weimer knows what he's doing, he's doing it on purpose and it is in fact the very point of Tactics, isn't it? Now maybe this particular componant is beyond, and if all of Tactics was this hard it would be no fun at all. But is it still within what you bargin-for when you install Tactics?

Now, to my real point for this post. If I can phrase it. The best way I can think of to say it is: WHY SHOULD your character be able to slaughter any and all enemies in the game? Should there not be forces which are stronger than you, at any given level/chapter? Do you really insist that in the entire life of a baahlspawn, you should never face a battle you cannot win?

(I'm not offering justification for why Faldorn would be that one power you couldn't defeat -- how about Eliminster, god-like powers, etc. -- but more generally stating that the world could/should include forces more powerful than you at any time.)

What's broken about the game if you turn around and leave? Trademeet town is screwed, you lose a little experience and an item. Life goes on, and you fight other evils elsewhere. It's not like some loop that won't let you escape until you win, that would truly be unreasonable. Six already answered this above:
The theory I'm working with -- Faldorn's*cough*Devil's advocate -- In specific response to your objections:

1) "Forces the player to include...a Druid... which is an unreasonable requirement for a major quest." >> No. It would be more unreasonable to say that the entire game-world should include nothing which is for-druids-only. That would be to throw away the whole idea of the Druidic hierarchy, the challenge for leadership. It is a "major" quest, but it is optional and untimed. Any other class can clear this quest up until Faldorn, and then tuck your tail and go home with the knowledge that you did not have the birthright to fight against a druidic leader in her home-grove.

2) "Improved Faldorn forces the player to wait until the very final stages of SoA." SO?? What is wrong with Tactics Mod (which is designed to make the game harder), changing one of the easiest quests from the very start of the game, into one of the hardest quests which you must save until the very end *if* you want to fight it? (I would actually advise, don't fight it, but admit there is a force you cannot beat and go home until you are prepared to return with god-like vengence).

3) "Improved Faldorn cheats in so many ways that I can't even number them." From the perspective of game-engine and rulebook technicalities, yes, of course you are right. From a standpoint of "Is this fun?" you may also be right, Faldorn cheats so it is not fun. BUT from a role-playing perspective, as a former Dungeon Master myself, I absolutely think that the game-world SHOULD present challenges which are inexplicable and unusual/unique creatures with abilities beyond the normal (perhaps a flying ogre, perhaps an inate ability for a b-spawn such as SlayerChange). I also believe the game should include enemies which are unbeatable through sheer force. (Ideally, to make it fun, there should be an alternative way around it, at least to escape it, if not defeat it).

FINALLY, the only justification I can offer for Faldorn's powers-beyond-what-druid-should have: Faldorn does say that she is magically enhanced and empowered while she is in her Druid's Grove shelter. There are many enemies throughout fantasy who are stronger in their home, not because of the walls but because of some kind of shared-power thing (Guess I am thinking of Saruman in Isengard before it is breached). This makes sense for someone like a Druid leader who is literally feeding on the power of her grove. Really, if you could just go in there and stomp the leader on the druid turf with no equipment, that should be saying a lot.

There's no question really, that this Faldorn is virtually unpassable at any stage of the game you're likely to be there, even if you wait. Unless you cheat or cheese significantly. I guess I agree that is going too far, but I'm trying to justify it. I'm thinking if I was a DM, and I had put that in my campaign to force the players to find other 'tactics...'

What do you think?

Has Weimer said he's going to tone it down?

[ 07-02-2004, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Hank Parsons ]

*cough* unseeing eye *cough* *cough*

Well, I beat the bitch.

Did a bit more testing before any serious attempts were made; no, Traps placed outside the area do not fire in response to Hostiles inside (no matter how close to the Traps they get). Kitthix does not Dimension Door into the pit, but Nymphs do--but only after it's too late to be much help (I didn't try Improved Kitthix).

The party had taken out everything except Improved Bodhi. Nalia was indeed Level 20, and Jaheira was indeed Levels 16/14. Buffs included: Ironskins, Oil of Speed, Improved Haste, Potion of Storm Giant Strength, Potion of Agility, Potion of Fortitude, Potion of Heroism, Potion of Invulnerability, Potion of Absorbtion, Potion of Magic Shielding (or Blocking, or Protection, one of those), Magic Resistance (for a total of 90% MR), Death Ward, Armor of Faith, Chaotic Commands, Free Action, Resist Fear, Protection from Fire, Resist Fire/Cold, Regeneration, Improved Invisibility, and Hardiness. A Cure Disease was memorized to dispel the Blindness.

Once in the pit, Jaheira immediately cast Creeping Doom on herself, and was amazed to see that it actually got through Faldorn's Magic Resistance for once. But that happy thought quickly faded when I looked around the floor of the pit and saw that there was nothing to fight with--no Staves on the ground. Yes, I'm sure. Rightfully perturbed, I CLUA'd one in ("staf01") and passed it to Jaheira--who used it and got the dreaded Weapon Ineffective. Well, I certainly wasn't going to put up with that shit, so I had Anomen toss Pitchwife over the wall. As a result, Faldorn was finished long before she started casting Heal--damage over time bows to no spellcaster. Jaheira cast no spells other than her Creeping Doom during the fight, and still had some Ironskins left from the night before.

Then I did it again, with the same buffs, but with Jaheira using her Earth Elemental Transformation instead of Pitchwife. Faldorn fared better in this fight, eating through the Stoneskins and getting Jaheira down to about 50% health (even with Regeneration active) before she died.

Overpowered? You bet your ass.

The nasty bit is that given the size of the arena, it's impossible to be out of range of your own Dispel, giving you a 50% chance of leaving you buck naked. Maybe more, if you used Potions: From what I've read, all Scrolls are treated as Caster Level 10, and I'll bet Potions are calculated the same way--and if a Dispel Magic is successful against some of the enchantments on a particular person, it's successful against <u>all</u> enchantments.

Not to mention the fact that Weimer has more than likely made Faldorn's buffs permanent anyway, as you said above. I'm just glad she doesn't cast Dispel. :rolleyes:


My point in quoting that particualr Weimerism was not to say that Weimer doesn't know what the hell he's playing at; he does, in fact, have a rough idea. My point was that the concept of Improved Faldorn being "a bit strong" should have entered into his head long, long before he began getting feedback for her. For a creature supposed to be beatable by a solo, naked, Level 13 Avenger (or something on that power scale), the fact that she's capable of taking out a Deva seems to have slipped entirely below Weimer's notice.

"Weimer knows what he's doing" .....well, that could be taken more than one way, couldn't it? Does Weimer know that he's making the game more difficult? Yes he does. Does Weimer know that he's blowing things completely out of proportion? Apparently not. (And yes, there IS such a thing as proportion. It is NOT cool to take an NPC that was just another average (heck, below average) NPC in BG1, and turn her into the approximate difficulty level of Demogorgon.)

"The very point of Tactics" ....that, too, deserves consideration. Is the point of Tactics to juice up all encounters to the level of Solaufein/Valen/Improved Small Teeth Pass munchkinfests? Is the point of Tactics to force SoA parties to wither and die, again and again, against a string of ToB-powered opponents? Or is the object of Tactics to make the game <u>better?</u>

As for "any and all" enemies in the game, you're right, I can imagine certain creatures being superior to the might I could weild. In the face of a deity, or a Tarrasque, or 1 million Mind Flayers, or a legendary force like Elminster, or something of that nature, I would probably have to concede defeat. But a Level 15 Druid, whatever her connection with the Earth Mother might be, is simply a Level 15 Druid. And, given the unparallelled amount of artifact-level weapons and equipment the party has at their disposal, not to mention their spellpower, I do not imagine there would be many enemies that could not be beaten.

I have no objection to the game including quests for Druids only. But Improved Faldorn goes beyond that, it locks out an entire series of quests that, before, could be completed by any party. Now, the only way to do them is if your party includes Cernd or Jaheira, or you're a Druid yourself. This is tantamount to my creating a new recruitable NPC, a Gnomish Cleric/Thief, and spiking in a large amount of cheese that makes Firkraag unbeatable by anyone except a Gnomish Cleric/Thief.

I'll tell you what's wrong with it: It's unrealistic. Think of all the big fights in the game, and how many of them SHOULD outrank a Level 15 Druid in terms of difficulty: The Guarded Compound, Kangaxx, the Twisted Rune, Lich in the Docks, at least two Dragons, a huge nest of Vampires, at least one Baalor, possibly a Lesser Demon Lord, two Beholder lairs, two Mind Flayer dungeons, a few Cowled Wizard ambushes, God knows how many Random City Encounters......etc. Now count how many of those you have to fight before Improved Faldorn, just because your only shot at survival is to get your Druid up to ToB levels.

I have never disagreed with this, I have only added the caveat that there is a point when enough is frankly enough. And call me crazy, but I think that permanent Armor of Faith, Barkskins, Prot. from Fire/Cold/Electricity, Mantle, etc., etc., etc., ETC., is just a <u>wee</u> bit of overkill. And I think Weimer is in the wrong for not having the sense to notice that prior to release. What, did he actually sit back and say, "Yeah, that looks about right?"

Good idea, go make one. But don't have it require any specific party makeup, and don't have it block off any pre-existing quests.

It's always been my understanding that tapping into the power of the Grove makes Faldorn unkillable--OUTSIDE the Challenge Ritual. Once the challenge has been invoked, the Earth Mother is unsure of which Druid to grant her power to, and therefore withholds it, meaning Faldorn is pretty much just another Level 15 Druid with some slight (SLIGHT!) advantages, such as having a natural 19 Strength. She did, after all, apparently defeat whoever was Grand Druid here previously. I have no objection to Faldorn being made more challenging than her original incarnation; I obviously have plently of good objections to make to her Weimerized version.

Not that I'm aware of.

Awesome answer to my questions, Six. You're cool as hell man. Way to go -- on beating Faldorn, on accomplishing your research, and mainly on responding to my line of questions.

Loved the part where you conceeded that a Tarrasque should be able to beat a bhaal-spawn.

I just hope you're not mad at Wiemer, cuz I know he does look at your input. SixOfSpades is talked about in the last Tactics ReadMe. I would not be surprised if he looked very carefully at your suggestions before the next release of Tactics. And since there have been 5 updates to Tactics in the past few months, I would assume there will be another and that he will end up toning down Faldorn.

Only detail I did not agree with: Six said, "Think of all the big fights in the game, and how many of them SHOULD outrank a Level 15 Druid in terms of difficulty... ...etc." Now, I do not think that a Random City Encounter SHOULD be more powerful than Faldorn! NO way. That would be saying that the Random Encounter enemies could have waltzed up to Druid's Grove and won. How about Mind Flayers and Beholders? The PC can beat them, surely Faldorn could beat them, especially if they came into her Earth Mother sanctuary. A lesser demon? More powerful than one who has the support of the Earth Mother? Nah. Liches, Dragons, Baalor, Eliminster -- yes, these should be more powerful than Faldorn at face value one-on-one (e.g. Dragon vs. Faldorn). But -- you would be allowed to face Dragon with party and equipment, when compared with facing Faldorn naked, the Faldorn battle should be harder.

I liked your explanation about the Druidic Challenge and how the Earth Mother would be unsure whom to award favor, in a Challenge. Perhaps for some reason -- be it magic, Time of Troubles, Earth Mother not wanting Bhaal-spawn to take over the grove, or whatever -- you can pretend that Earth Mother granted extraordinary partisan protections to Faldorn in an effort to keep her as the leader and block you out of the Druidic hierarchy. Goes against Druidic tradition, maybe, but the time-period of the game involves numerous unusual gods-politics.

Thanks again for your research and replies.

Bloody hell... I think you used almost all of the darn buffing spells in the game. =/ Except for a few.

What I personally don't like about Improved Faldorn is that it really doesn't require any tactics. It requires pre-knowledge and knowledge more than any specific tactics. Let's just say that you didn't know how hard Faldorn is. No preknowledge whatsoever. There is no way that you would survive. There is no indication that she's roughly on the level of a certain Demon Prince. All of the other components (save the Chapter 6 ones, I suppose) are beatable with a before-Underdark (level 13'ish range) party. This one isn't.

I mean; okay, let's look at Firkraag. With some good luck, one could beat even Firkraag at a fairly low level. I haven't tried it at that low of a level yet (respecting the Vampires [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), but I know that it's definately possible at level 13. Firkraag is at level 25! With 3 ApR. Yes, Faldorn could possibly be harder, but she's a bit too hard. I mean, how come I don't get those cool powers when I become the leader of the Grove?

On a side note, do any of you know just how much of a bloody difference having Improved Haste makes? It's so powerful... Now, I'm starting to divide up battles in three sections: Before Improved Haste, after Improved Haste, and after Time Stop. Faldorn is in the Time Stop range. All of the rest are in the Improved Haste range.

Not tthat I have anything against Tactics. I like Tactics, as SixoOfSpades can attest to (remember that long thread where you were trying to make the impossible battle? [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), but this one is going slightly over the brink.

While I was reading up and looking for that thread, here's something that I found: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...=018880#000000 ; scroll down a bit, and see some people's view on NB. =/

And here's a little tidbit from the thread I was looking for: http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cg...2;t=021290;p=4 Improved Demons have been made, and if you look at page 3 (where Alson talks about Ascension), a solo Cleric has finished Ascension. :D

[ 07-05-2004, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

This is the problem I have with Faldorn as well - it makes me cater my game to her. Even Valen's Vampire Slayers & Sola's Eclipse Encounter are, technically, beatable with any party. Faldorn requires taking a Druid through the entire game & practically requires having Throne of Bhaal installed - I managed to beat Faldorn with a single-classed Druid using Sunnis, a Deva, Greater Earth Elemental Transformation (all ToB abilities) & every buff/potion under the sun.

There's needs to be an alternative - maybe even one that doesn't result in defeating Faldorn but still saves Trademeet - so the story can continue. Good parties don't get the chance to poison the Grove, after all.

- Imrahil

I was unable to beat Firkragg at a low level. He targets the protagonist so much, that it really doesn't matter what the rest of the party has, all that matters is whether your PC can survive long enough for the party to win.

But remember a major difference. You face Firkragg with a whole party, with equipment. You face Faldorn naked alone. If you faced Firkragg solo-naked, you would quickly find out that he is just as hard as Faldorn and probably worse.

Finally, how do you know you didn't get those cool powers when you became leader of the grove? Did you ever get attacked inside your Druid's Grove sanctuary? Did you ever get challenged for the Druidic leadership? Cuz if you did, and the Earth Mother wanted to keep you for some reason, I imagine she would buff you and defend you quite strongly. A PC should not be more powerful than Nature itself.... (Just providing one possible role-playing explanation for Improved Faldorn).