Re: I'm no coder but....
 

You did not supply a recording that demonstrates
the bug. But I think I waas able to duplicate
the problem and make a recording. It is at:

http://dianneandpaul.net/UAF/Playfil...ad20090223.log

Rename it to "playfile.log" and see if this
adequately demonstrates the bug as you
understand it. Notice that I 'corner' the
skeleton and, according to the 2nd edition
rules, the skeleton should return to his nasty
ways. As it is, he sits still and 'guards', not
what you would like him to do?

======
P.S. - How do I change my icon? That picture
underneath my name in each forum entry.

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

Oops - was I supposed to make a recording? (I didn't even know about that function until just now... :D ) I will check it when I get home...

As for AD&D rules - 1st Edition and 2nd Edition rules are quite similar, but different (usually in terms of, the tables were tweaked). As far as I remember, the Gold Box games were based on 1st Edition rules (even though 2e had appeared by Azure Bonds or so) - for example, the ranger had magic-user and druid spells (in 2e, the ranger had priest spells of the animal and plant spheres only).

My guess is that the 2e rules are more widely-known (and assumed to be the same as 1e), so they were used as the de-facto rules for DC as well, but I am not sure what Richard intended here... In terms of turning undead, the game mechanic is basically the same, but the scores changed somewhat (if you compare my table and the table in the 2e book, you will see some small differences). Another difference is that 2e started to ignore the ability of clerics to turn minor demons/devils as well, although some references to this ability still remained.

As for the current mini-mod, I can see a few bugs that it contains (although the bug number is for a single one):

1. Fleeing (fleeing causes DC to crash and thus was turned off)
2. Undead invincibility (immunity to death magic causes monster to become unkillable)
3. Turning undead (seems to work, but fleeing is turned off, making the function moot)

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

By the way, the 2nd edition table (for comparison) is on this page (another of my pages) down at the "Cleric" heading:

http://www.geocities.com/echaecha/ad...lcampaign.html

Comparing, you can see that progression is equivalent levels 1-3, 2e falls behind somewhat for levels 4-9, and 2e is slightly stronger for levels 10+ (but almost exactly the same at the highest level (14)). In general, 2e favors gradual increases of ability of similar amounts, while 1e favors sudden "boosts" at certain levels (such as "name level" (level 9-11, varies per specific class)).

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

Richard says that 2nd edition rules were
more-or-less his goal. So let us tend toward
2nd edition.

OK. One thing at a time before I get
too confused.


If you play that recording I posted you
will see that I (inadvertantly) cornered the
'turned' skeleton. The 2nd edition rules say:

"Undead bound by orders (like skeletons) simply
retreat. . . . "

whereas:

"Free-willed undead attempt to flee . . . ."

and it implies that they behave differently
when cornered.

My questions:

1) What is this distinction between free-willed
and non-free-willed? Would it be possible
to not make this distinction and to treat all
undead the same? Same as what? Like a
skeleton? That seems easiest. It would simply
try to put distance between itself and the
character that most recently turned or attacked
it.

2) What is the minimum we can do when a
turned, undead creature is cornered?
Returning it to fighting status or guarding
seems easiest. Perhaps guard and randomly
return to fighting status.

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

Sorry... Didn't even have a chance to turn on my PC last night, will try to run the recording tonight...

But as for the questions...

Free-willed undead are most of the undead out there (vampires, mummies, ghouls, etc.); non-free-willed are the mindless undead like skeletons and zombies. In practice, though, I think that the end result is that all turned undead just flee/retreat, so most AD&D-based games seem to treat all undead more or less the same... So yeah, I think your idea to treat all undead like skeletons would work fine.

As for question #2, I am not sure - I think that turned undead just keep fleeing no matter what (during the duration of the successful turning). (I think that some AD&D-based games I have played did this, so you could chase the undead around while they just kept running from you.) I can try to search for references regarding duration and what happens when turned undead are cornered...

(As for 1e vs. 2e, well - 2e turning tables were actually basically given as an option in 1e as well, i.e. uneven progression (the default) vs. even progression (optional); I guess the 2e authors favored even progression in general, so took that method.)

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

I enabled the fleeing option after
turning undead. I understand that it
was disabled because it caused a
crash. I cannot cause the crash.
Perhaps someone else can get a
recording of a crash so that I can try
to fix it.

To try the new version, get:

http://dianneandpaul.net/UAF/UAFWin_0914004.7z

It has a demo playfile that you need to
rename to "Playfile.log".

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

I will try later on (as far as I remember, though, perhaps fleeing undead only caused crashes/freezes sometimes?) - should we install the 7z file, or just open it up and overwrite some folders?

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

I think I put everything you need into
the archive file. Unzip it ito its own
folder so you don't fiddle with anything
else on your machine.

Copy the executable into the .dsn folder.
Copy the playfile......log to "Playfile.log"
into the .dsn folder and rename it. Then
switch to the .dsn folder and run the
executable and press Control-P.

In the future, I will do all this copying and
renaming before posting the test - to
make things easier.

Crashes on occasion? Ouch. Well, that
is why we have the recording option. So
that such things can be saved and
reproduced. I'll try turning for an hour or
so to see if I can cause a crash.

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

Sorry... Didn't have any time to run the playfile last night, either :( (Rather busy these days, which is why I haven't been drawing much, either!) Will try again tonight...

Anyway, regarding the crash - can't remember if DC crashed or if it just froze - will have to try again and see... (Maybe I will try with higher-level clerics to see if the undead are destroyed at higher levels as well.)

Re: I'm no coder but....
 

Thanks. I have been playing with the
savegame you sent me and have not
been able to cause any trouble. Make
sure you turn on recording when you play
so that if you do manage to get the
thing to misbehave, we will be able to
reproduce it.

Is there anyone else out there in Dungeon
Craft land who is willing to try and prove
that 'Turn Undead' does not work properly?
Perhaps with Manikus gone, we are reduced
to a two-party system.