WEll if you mention "racial" in a subject Jacksons name is bound to come up somewhere [img]tongue.gif[/img]

That is exactly what is happening, if you are polynesian you get extra scholarships for medicine etc. Now this is racial discrimination.

I am talking about the US MagiK. It is simply not true that anyone can get an education if they work for it. A lot of people have to work a lot harder than others to overcome years of prejudice and economic discrimination. So they can't afford to go to the same schools, they can't get into debt to do so, they have to work to support a family or simply they don't want to go to a school where they believe themselves not welcome due to a lack of minority students. I stand by my claim that the education system is still inherently racist, and the figures seem to prove it. Positive discrimination, whilst a philosophical contradiction, is necessary to overcome this for now. Azred - I don't think this is a permanent thing, and I don't think it is likely to become so. You see the opposition to it now... I am suprised it has survived this long.

And Avatar, Oxbridge is not elitist? The stats imply that it is as there is a lack of state school people both applying there and succeeding to get in. Why is this? People in state schools don't receive as good an education as private school people, because they can't pay for it. So what seems more logically possible? Poor people are naturally less intelligent, or that poor people can't afford the top of the profession in teaching and all the resources that come with it.

My final point is just to aska few of you guys to take a different look at this just briefly. A lot has been said along the lines of "why do we white males have to be deprived because these people are black/yellow/women/gay/lesbian/dwarf/bagpipe players/etc...". Well, try this one - "why do the other people have to be deprived because of your advantages, they may be just as intelligent and able but not had the opportunity to show it.". And if my statement is just liberal whining then surely your first statement is just conservative whining. Just a thought...</font>[/QUOTE]Barry Barry Barry, no one has to work off years of enslavement and discrimination in the US...while individuals may or may not be racist the public schools have children of all backgrounds in them, they are all basicly taught the same information and if they apply themselves it can be done, if there is anything holding them back it is the mistaken belief that they get poor grades because of their race. As for higher education, only the people qualified should be accepted and standards should not be lowered for a person due to race or sex, to do so just feeds the myth that that race or that sex can't compete on a level playing field. You are useing a completely bogus notion by twisting things around the way you did. GRADES are what determines your suitability for a college (public not private) that an ability to pay. Thousands and thousands of kids of all races and sexes work their way through school every year, bussing tables, flipping burgers and doing whatever it takes. Giving a seat to a less qualified person is just wrong ...period. Not to mention unfair.

And you and I both do not know what the political leanings of the students denied acceptance so that lesser qualified students can be admitted are so leave the...what did you say?? "Conservative whining" comments out. Discrimination is discrimination...not just when it is against your prefered minority.

Oh just one thing you may not have thought about..and I had forgotten...when colleges lower their standards for certain catagories of people and then those people gradute...guess what...employers ownt want to hire them because they didn't earn their grades/position/whatever I can't tell you how my wife hated the fact that people didn't give her the respect she deserved for making Petty Officer ..why? because she could score a full 15 points lower than a man.....why would anyone want to follow someone who isnt the best qualified? We need level playing fields...not some misplaced attampt to asuage someones guilt over how someone treated someone else 40, 80 or 100 or 200 years ago.

[ 05-16-2002, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

I am talking about the US MagiK. It is simply not true that anyone can get an education if they work for it. A lot of people have to work a lot harder than others to overcome years of prejudice and economic discrimination. So they can't afford to go to the same schools, they can't get into debt to do so, they have to work to support a family or simply they don't want to go to a school where they believe themselves not welcome due to a lack of minority students. I stand by my claim that the education system is still inherently racist, and the figures seem to prove it. Positive discrimination, whilst a philosophical contradiction, is necessary to overcome this for now. Azred - I don't think this is a permanent thing, and I don't think it is likely to become so. You see the opposition to it now... I am suprised it has survived this long.

And Avatar, Oxbridge is not elitist? The stats imply that it is as there is a lack of state school people both applying there and succeeding to get in. Why is this? People in state schools don't receive as good an education as private school people, because they can't pay for it. So what seems more logically possible? Poor people are naturally less intelligent, or that poor people can't afford the top of the profession in teaching and all the resources that come with it.

My final point is just to aska few of you guys to take a different look at this just briefly. A lot has been said along the lines of "why do we white males have to be deprived because these people are black/yellow/women/gay/lesbian/dwarf/bagpipe players/etc...". Well, try this one - "why do the other people have to be deprived because of your advantages, they may be just as intelligent and able but not had the opportunity to show it.". And if my statement is just liberal whining then surely your first statement is just conservative whining. Just a thought...</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=orange>Actually, money isn't that big a deal in the US. There are many scholarships out there, especially for minorities. Granted you may not be able to get into Harvard, but you could get into any good state run school that way. Also there are low interest rate loans available to everyone. My wife had several loans that we had to pay back after she got her degree and went to work. She also recieved the Pell Grant, which is free money that one can qualify for. I also might add that she went to a private school.

Another way to pay for a college education is to join the Army Reserve. They will pay you a monthly salary of around $150-$200 a month (really a weekend), plus help you pay for your student loans. It's a very generous program. You can also make a commitment to a ROTC program and recieve an additional $100 per month.

In short, if you want to get a college degree, the money is available.
It's up to you to make the good grades to get in and then graduate. Theat's where the free ride ends!</font>

I am talking about the US MagiK. It is simply not true that anyone can get an education if they work for it. A lot of people have to work a lot harder than others to overcome years of prejudice and economic discrimination. So they can't afford to go to the same schools, they can't get into debt to do so, they have to work to support a family or simply they don't want to go to a school where they believe themselves not welcome due to a lack of minority students. I stand by my claim that the education system is still inherently racist, and the figures seem to prove it. Positive discrimination, whilst a philosophical contradiction, is necessary to overcome this for now. Azred - I don't think this is a permanent thing, and I don't think it is likely to become so. You see the opposition to it now... I am suprised it has survived this long.

And Avatar, Oxbridge is not elitist? The stats imply that it is as there is a lack of state school people both applying there and succeeding to get in. Why is this? People in state schools don't receive as good an education as private school people, because they can't pay for it. So what seems more logically possible? Poor people are naturally less intelligent, or that poor people can't afford the top of the profession in teaching and all the resources that come with it.

My final point is just to aska few of you guys to take a different look at this just briefly. A lot has been said along the lines of "why do we white males have to be deprived because these people are black/yellow/women/gay/lesbian/dwarf/bagpipe players/etc...". Well, try this one - "why do the other people have to be deprived because of your advantages, they may be just as intelligent and able but not had the opportunity to show it.". And if my statement is just liberal whining then surely your first statement is just conservative whining. Just a thought...</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=orange>Actually, money isn't that big a deal in the US. There are many scholarships out there, especially for minorities. Granted you may not be able to get into Harvard, but you could get into any good state run school that way. Also there are low interest rate loans available to everyone. My wife had several loans that we had to pay back after she got her degree and went to work. She also recieved the Pell Grant, which is free money that one can qualify for. I also might add that she went to a private school.

Another way to pay for a college education is to join the Army Reserve. They will pay you a monthly salary of around $150-$200 a month (really a weekend), plus help you pay for your student loans. It's a very generous program. You can also make a commitment to a ROTC program and recieve an additional $100 per month.

In short, if you want to get a college degree, the money is available.
It's up to you to make the good grades to get in and then graduate. Theat's where the free ride ends!</font></font>[/QUOTE]Good point, there really is no good reason for not being able to get into a school in the US, but to have schools turning qualified students away so they can take unqualified students is just plain wrong in my mind.

I thought they stopped doing that everywhere. Out here in California, there is absolutely no more affirmative action in the public education system.

No they didnt get rid of that everywhere, this is currently being fought about in Wisconsin or michigan or one of those other "Cheesey" states...(cheesey as in cheese producing)

Part of the problem is that people don't want to do the things that will get them the educational dollars. It's a sad fact that one must usually do something for money.

Here's a story:

person 1: *Whine* I can't get money for school!

person 2: Lets go join the military for two years and get all that educational money they offer?

person 1: *Whine* I don't WANT to join the Army! That would suck!

Person 2 joins and gets the money. He takes part time classes during his enlistment which are half paid for by his unit. His room and board are taken care of and he can use his pay for the remaining cost of education. He then uses his GI bill and Army College Fund to finish his higher education when he gets out.

person 2: Hey person 1! I finally got my degree! Things are going pretty good now. See you later.

person 1: *whine* I can't get money for school! I wish I had opportunity in life like person 2!

There's a distinct difference between these two and it's not race or sex, although I'm sure person 1 will blame it on that if he/she's able to. There's opportunities out there. You just have to take them even though the path may be unpleasant. You'll have to work and go to school a total of 15 hours a day and pay for the pleasure! You'll have to do without and maybe miss a meal or two. You may have to use a bicycle sometimes to save gas or get around when the car is broke down. You will long to see the sun again! The ability to endure these things to get what you want is the very trait that makes person 1 better than person 2 in the work force. This is life, that's the way it is. DEAL WITH IT OR SHUT UP! Nuff said!