see, though masklinn, what i said was no worse than the way you phrased your original question, and THAT's the problem i have. what i said was no more insulting than what people say about america and yet people think thats a bannable offense.

and you're right, i AM stubborn. hypocracy ticks me off to no end.

I am yet to see anyone who "questions the virtues of the French"as you put it, honestly discuss the virtues of the French Promethius. Their idea of questioning has usually been to slag off the people rather than to challenge the government and its actions. Even when the topic gets reasonable treatment for a few posts it degenerates into the farcical along the lines of "the French are only good at one thing - retreating" and "thank God we have Freedon Fries now".

It is a clear violation of TOS to slander a people (nationality or race). It is within the TOS to discuss, agree, disagree a governments actions. As long as you are doing the latter, and not trying to score petty points with the former you won't have people calling you out.

FWIW, there is a lot of love and respect for the American people on this forum, but not a whole lot of love and respect for GWB. The world feels more duped by this war than the American people do. Those are simple statements of fact.

<font color=deepskyblue>Gosh, I must have missed the last few "documentary films" put out by FOX NEWS.

While it's true that Faux News presents itself as "Fair and Balanced", nobody believes that any more than they believe Pro Wrestling is real. Even most hardcore conservatives will admit to the obvious slant Fox puts on their news.

On the other hand, Moore still insists that his films are "documentaries" that present the whole and unaltered truth and his supporters parrot the same line. His own statements regarding the Disney Distribution SHOW beyond any doubt how he "spins" the facts to make it look as if he is being perpetually victimized, but many people here still refuse to see or acknowledge it.

What's really funny is that many of the members who defend Moore and deny his antics so strongly are same ones that level those very same criticisms at conservatives for their failure to "acknowledge" these same traits in President Bush.</font>

Well, despite the stances we take during debate or during jokes, or in the midst of insult-trading, I'd like to think that there is actually a lot of love and respect for ALL people on this forum. If we really didn't care about the world, and what is the "good" thing to do, would we really come here to debate it so regularly? While I will surely shamelessly deny this sentiment later, I gotta say that the group of people I see coming here are extremely well-read and well-versed on the state of affairs in the world. True, we have VERY different views on what may be good for society and the world: the people who disagree with gay marriage don't normally do it just to hate gays, but rather because they want to see traditional values hold firm; and the people who support gay rights don't do it just to piss of the establishment, but rather because they want to include other people in our list of "who gets respect and rights" -- and that is just one small issue.

It's not the people who disagree with me and link articles from other cultures opposing my viewpoints that I fear. It's the ones who can't be bothered to read the news that I fear.

And, that's too bad. I firmly believe that we elect our leaders to do more than just bow to the whims of society in the moment. I think one of their KEY jobs is to look to the future and take decisions that may hurt in the present, but will provide a better life for us all in the future. GWB is exploring a new path and attitude in American policy toward the terrorism and Middle East issues. Whether history proves him right or wrong, we will know, eventually, whether or not this path was a good one to take -- and we can react/readjust accordingly.

well, everyone knows my sentiments about the war in iraq. i firmly believe that it was saddams time to be brought down... and that since that happened iraq has become (not was before but is now) a central theatre for the war on terrorism.

i think that is one think we can agree on. so, lets get iraq settled and the terrorists there ousted so that the american soldiers can come home

If only that had been offered as the primary reason, Promethius, if only....

well, timber, it would be hard to offer that as a primary reason because before the war it was not a central focus in terrorism. its a huge symbol to take over and convert to democracy, so it became a cental focus of terrorism only after the war began. at any rate, i couldnt vote for a politician who would just get our soldiers out of their, we NEED to win now.

NO, promethius. What I meant was that "it's time for Saddam to be brought down" was not offered as a primary reason, and it could have been. If you will recall, despite efforts to rewrite history, the primary reason was "Saddam has WMD."

I for one would have had a lot more respect for Bush and Blair if they had said they wanted to take down Saddam on human rights grounds. I still wouldn't have supported the war, and I still wouldn't have believed them, but I'd have had a lot mroe respect for them for at least trying to come up with a compelling reason.

Of course if they had tried this tactic then it would beg the question of why Saddam had become so horrible just then, and why we hadn't gone after him all those years ago when all evidence suggests he was worse and we were actually supporting him...

Either way it doesn't matter now. The structure of the power exchange and what we're hearing from Iraq seems to indicate, to me at least, that the human rights of the Iraqi's was the last thing on Bush and Blair's minds.

The pragmatist in me supported his ousting on human rights issues. The WOMD was always a line to justify it to the selfish self interested, only concerned about self protection. Use fear instead of justice. You can see the retorts now from fat-cat Americans and British "but what do we have to do with brutalised Iraqis? Let them kick out Hussein himself"

All the while Russian, French and Chinese dollars ensured he never would have left, as his pockets were filled while his people were "starved" due to the US sanctions (of course).

It's easy to slag off someone when they attempt something. Much harder to attempt something yourself.

I detest war. WOMD was hypocritical considering the nuclear bomb ownership situation. Yet Hussein is gone, and for that I am relieved.