True enough. However Marx himself said that Socialism would need to work in the west first - not the east. Russia had no history of human rights and democracy on which to build. They tried running when they couldn't walk. There is no reason why Socialism has to be totalitarian and repressive. Russia had seige mentality though because the west sided with the White Army during the Russian civil war, and later sought to undermine their way of government.

No govt is perfect, and a nation of 430 million must be very careful when criticising the way a nation of one billion people works. It must be very very difficult. Plus, China before Communism was a European exploited mess. Russia before Communism couldn't feed it's people. The Tsars were arseholes to the everyday folks.

Communism is meant to be a temporary means of implimenting true Socialism. Your aforementioned 'Human nature' put paid to that ever happening.

BTW, did you know Yeltsin was the first ever Russian leader to willingly step down from office?

Now, I'm no economist, but I equate myself with some peasant in the middle of Europe saying to himself... "feudalism sucks"! Well, capitalism sucks. I don't know of a better alternative but there has to be one. Capitalism = growth, growth, growth, when nature is all about subsistence and balance.

Another thing to think about is this. There are two sides to every story.
We hear about how the Dalai Lama is getting the rough end of the stick, and how China are systematically destroying Tibet.

I get so upset at the thought of Tibet losing it's cultural heritage, but have you heard the Chinese side?

For starters Imperial China created the post of Dalai Lama for the Tibetens!
How crazy is that? That is why they have the standoff over the Panchen Lama, because the post still has to be ratified by Beijing.

So the communists get into power, try sweeping the place clean with the cultural revolution and see in Tibet a "God-King" ruling the people. How much power does one hold if you make both earthly laws and spiritual laws?

It's interesting seeing both sides, that's all I'm basically saying. I still get upset at Tibets situation, but I don't demonise China in the process, and also have a better understanding of why they do certain things.


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O.K..... what do I do now? Goo goo goo choo?
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A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

What a rambling disjointed post. I congratulate anyone who links the pieces together. I know what I'm saying, but my mind was racing and my fingers waaaayy too slow. Sorry. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gif

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O.K..... what do I do now? Goo goo goo choo?
http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!

A nice thing about people Wanting War
Only one kind of people actually idolise war
The Fasists
And we saw what good they did to the world


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Oh no, Yorick, it is a very interesting post - only it holds several points, so it has to be read slooowwwly ! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif Damn, I haven't got enough time to read the whole thread, I miss everything while away.



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The world is my oyster !

yes! every post from Yorick is interesting!!

Hey Yorick...

Speaking of Tibet, in a similar vein, did you get the chance to see the footage of the Taliban militia in Afghanistan blowing gargantuan statues of Buddha off of the mountainsides? I thought I was going to pull my hair out! So much ignorance and intolerance in the world...

I mean, what the hell is the point of blowing up ancient artwork that doesn't hurt anybody. IIRC, Buddhists aren't a militant order...are they? http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

I just don't understand the Taliban way of thinking. It almost appears as though they are scared of people finding out that other religions exist. I guess any gov't. (if you can call them that) that would harbor one of the world's most vicious terrorists (Osama bin Ladin [sp.?]) must be a little on the unreasonable side.

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My *God* man...would you *please* eat something!?

Yorick, i am sorry, what about Tibet? Chinese is doing what? mind clearify it? thx

The fundamental idea of capitalism is that everyone wins. However, this only will work in a true 'free market' economy, and unfortunately as long as there is a government there will be no 'free market' economy! As soon as the first law is introduced that puts tariffs on trade, regulates prices, or bans products, true capitalism is crushed. IMHO that is the problem in the US today. People are lead to believe that the Government has to be involved in the marketplace if they (the people) are to be truly prosperous. But, look at the Clinton administration. The most prosperous time in the history of the US and how was it accomplished? By Clinton not getting involved. That is why we have a Federal Reserve System. The President and Congress should not be involved in monetary policy and should only introduce tax cuts or increases to manage governemnt spending, NOT to reverse the course of the economy! We have a case in the US right now of both the Government and the FED trying to fix the 'recession'. The problem with this is that there will be an 'over correction' and we will find ourselves in a deeper recession with high inflation and unemployment.

Just my two cents http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

Nothing new 250 don't worry. This has been going on for a long time, Han Chinese probably outnumber ethnic Tibetens as they do in Inner Mongolia by now (Mind you, the Mongols dished out plenty of stick to the Han Chinese over the centuries. Genghis? Kublai? )

Buddhist Monks get harrassed and detained, Temples get pulled down. There is a problem with who the next Panchen Lama is (no.2 in Lamaist Buddhism) The Dalai 'found' one, and Beijing claimed it had found one. I think the Dalai's child got taken, I can't remember. Anyhow China is training up the second most powerful Lama. The Panchen will in time 'find' the next Dalai I believe. Problem solved for Beijing I'd say. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif

Still, the Han were overrun by Mongols, Manchus, Japanese and humiliated by colonial Europe (Look at the 'treaties' regarding Hong Kong and Macau for starters, and the events around the Boxer rebellion for seconds). Any distrust of the west goes back a long way, and in that context is quite justified, and if they're moving into provinces they have 'aquired' how different is it from the English and Spanish wiping out Native Amerindian cultures, cities and peoples (no more Carribees http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/frown.gif )

This is all one reason I'm a Christian. Human nature has proven so destructive, and Jesus teaching is so much about loving your enemy and turning the other cheek, that I believe it's the only hope (if there is one) for world peace. The amazing thing is, his ideas were formulated without any education, without being born into privellege like say Buddha, and with limited travel, yet his teachings are so outside human nature and what he would have experienced.

(steps off soapbox)

You'd never guess I was an optimist would you? A pessimistic optimist. A cynical believer. Ah well.

Thanks for the hi ho Moiraine. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif


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O.K..... what do I do now? Goo goo goo choo?
http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A fair dinkum laughing Hyena!



[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 04-10-2001).]

Satellites do not tell a country everything it wants to know. A large carrier task force, for example, can spend months at sea and evade detection from satellites--how much easier for a submarine group. (e.g. Those really fancy cameras in satellites still can't see through storm clouds). Of course, this is just a minor point.

EVERY country larger than Aruba participates in some form of spying--and that includes Holland and the Netherlands. Everybody spies on everybody else--at least as much as possible. Countries gather information about their enemies and allies--economic, political, social, military, etc. The whole point of spying and gathering information is that you never know what will become useful. Do you want to wait until a war is started before you even glance at the opponent's resources?

Regarding Spy planes--the US plane was operating in International Waters. This is obvious from the fact that the Chinese pilots did not ward it off (or blow it up) with a warning shot. The Chinese pilots were "escorting" the US plane--they were trying to intimidate, annoy, and disrupt the US plane's mission (which is perfectly legal and expected). If they had been in Chinese waters they would not have been "escorting," they would have been "executing." (Does anyone remember the Cesna that flew too close to Cuba a few years back? That's what happens to unwanted aircraft.)

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Let me see..."Oprah!"