Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

Here is a non US link about the carbon credits.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover031307.htm

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

How does "Al Gore capitalizes on Human-Made Global Warming" = "Global Warming is not caused by Humankind's carbon emissions"?

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

<font color="plum">First of all, the ice core data taken in 1985 shows that carbon emmissions have risen and fallen over the last several thousand years - even when there was no man-made industry to cause it. So rising CO2 levels is not a man-made event.
Secondly, CO2 levels rise after global temperatures, not before. In other words, rising CO2 levels are a result of increased temperature, not the cause of those temperatures.</font>

http://mises.org/story/2795

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

How does the climate's changed before make it so that Human's industrialization has no ill effect?

Why not be safe rather than sorry when it comes to the condition of the whole planet?

Would not the logic "pollution changes the enviroment" make any reasonable person cautious about any sort of massive amounts pollutants in the enviroment.

Obviously I'm skeptical, that's why I ask so many questions. So until somebody proves human's emmissions do not negatively impact the climate we should be the safest and cleanest stewards as our faculties provide us.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

You worded that much better than I did.

..and I really like your use of the word "steward".

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

<font color="plum">The message from Al Gore and cohorts is that man-made emmissions and industry are responsible for the rise in CO2 levels, which in turn is partially responsible for global warming.

The ice core samples disprove both of these messages. If man-made industry is responsible for rising CO2 levels, then how do they explain the proven history of escalated CO2 levels that obviously occurred when there was NO man-made industry? The answer is obvious - rising CO2 levels is a cyclical phenomon that has been occurring long before mankind could possibly have had any impact on it. So industry certainly is not the cause of it.

Why not be "responsible" and control emissions anyway? Nobody is suggesting not to do that. But the message being sent out is completely different - the message is that mankind is causing the rise in CO2 levels, which scientific data conclusively disproves. Industry may be one contributing factor, but it certainly is not the sole cause.

As I said before, when you manipulate the data, you taint your message. When you taint part of your message, the whole message becomes suspect.</font>

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

Yes, but those who made the movie about what you're saying , (can't remember the name) have admitted that they have "stretched the truth" or "made mistakes" as well.

I guess when people want to get their point across it's human nature to exaggerate.

I'm glad you said that we should be responsible. That's the only thing I was getting at earlier. Let's not put the blinders on and say everything is fine.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

<font color="plum">The problem I have with Gore and Moore is that they deliberately twist and manipulate the data to exaggerate their personal POV. And the fact that Gore actually won the Nobel Peace Prize for a film that has proven inaccuracies and is narrated by a man who admits he has lied about the dangers and impact of global warming in an effort to "increase awareness" just stuns me beyond belief.

"But isn't the message a noble one and, therefore, a worthy cause despite these few inaccuracies?"

I suppose so. By the same token, there should be no criticism of George W. Bush and the War in Iraq. So what if he "exaggerated" the claims of WoMD? Isn't the goal of removing a tyrannical dictator who is slaughtering innocent citizens a worthy one? So let's just agree that the end justifies the means, even if the message is twisted and tainted to achieve that end? NO? I didn't think so.</font>

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

Yes, to me, a lie is still a lie. I think it's fine in situation where you may not want to offend someone like: "yes. that's a nice dress" etc.

I think the truth of the threat is really enough. I feel it comes down to laziness. I see people on my court never put out blue bags for recycling. It's all black trash bags. I'm sure they tell themselves some nonsense to ease their conscience.

We don't have children, but that doesn't mean I'm going to mess everything up for the younger generation.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

This has been my view of it. If there is even a possibilty of danger in your home, and your kids could be in danger as a result of this, you work to find solutions. Even if some dismiss it as "being paranoid" you figure it can only help to be safe rather than sorry. At the end of the day, if your fears are correct...

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

But the difference here is he didn't exaggerate the claims, there were simply none. Now, if he said there were 20 WMD's and we found 10 i'd be like "Well, there weren't as many as he claimed, but we did find some and thank god we acted when we did". In the global warming case, despite the inaccuracies, most people still agree that it is an issue and acting on it would be prudent.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

This just in:

Volcanoes are the cause of Global Climate Change!!! News at 11.

:hidesbehindsofa:

sorry, my meds made me do it.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

ashes, ashes, we all get tumahs'!

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

<font color="plum">Saddam slaughtering innocent citizens was still an issue and it was prudent to act upon it.</font>

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

But that wasn't the reason given to go in there, which is why most Americans are unhappy with the war etc because they were misled and only agreed on going in, with the condition that we find and destroy these WMD's. I think it is quite different, as there are many issues with Iraq and dictatorships, UN approval etc.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

<font color="plum">And Al Gore has admitted lying about the actual danger of global warming. Add to that the fact that the British court documented the 9 proven inaccuracies in his film.

Bush lied about WoMD because he felt the goal of removing Saddam Hussein was noble and worthy. Al Gore lies about the true danger of global warming for the same reason.

The point is the same in both cases. Nobody denies that removing Saddam Hussein was a worthy objective. Nobody denies being environmentally friendly is a noble endeavor. However, the message concerning both of these objectives was twisted and tainted for the "greater good" by the person delivering the message.

You earlier posted....
<font color="white">I don't understand it, what does it matter if all the smears are true? Isn't the overall message noble, selfless? Would it hurt to make people, our kids and our grandkids aware? Do we suddenly stop listening to that song we love if the artist says something we don't agree with?</font>

You've stated directly and indirectly that it doesn't matter if Al Gore lied, his message is still noble overall. I'm merely pointing out another example of a misleading message being given to justify a noble cause. If the smears don't matter in one message, then they don't matter in the other. On the other hand, if the cause is damaged by the misleading message in one, the same is true for the other.</font>

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

I feel you also overstated or overreacted to what I said earlier. I know you took offense and I apologized via PM. I don't know if you have looked it yet or not; you didn't respond. Then, in a later post you admitted that we should be "responsible". That's all I was saying. We would be foolish to think that there is no problem.

I've been upset about it since you posted your response. You could have at least accepted my apology and let us carry on. I feel we're close enough on this forum that we can express ourselves and even fall under rebuke and correction, but in the end we carry on as friends.
I know I don't need to tell you that forgiveness is seventy times seven time Matthew 18:21-35: and "Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you", from Colossians 3:13.

People get passionate about things are go to far, or overstate things. That's exactly what we're talking about here.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

Many cannot agree upon a few ideals. But few disagree with one scientific break through. Carbon dating.

Analytically speaking, if exhibit A is carbon dated to an era before man, then how does it arrive back to man? Have we disregarded plate tectonics in our search for global warming?

What about continental drift, as presented by the German geophysicist, Alfred Wegener, from his model called "Pangaea"? Furthermore, by following his hypothesis is not clear that South East Georgia, and North East Florida is in fact changing to match from it's jigsaw cut? Recall that this region was attached to Africa in the area of modern day Morocco and Western Sahara, which are home to the Sahara desert. IIRC, both of these areas have seen mass drought, deforestation from dry conditions and increased wildfire over the last several years.

Moreover, I feel the human effect has placed a demand on the total climate that may or may not be changeable in the foreseeable future. What I do have an interest in, and follow closely is what the Greeks are reporting about deterioration of their ancient historical relics. It appears that scientists over the years have recorded deterioration levels and have made some hypothesis that an increase can be traced to a significant event. The automobile, and man made pollutants. One such hypothesis is that over the last 50-60 years, the measurable increase of carbon dioxide has propelled the deterioration process into previously unrecorded stages. To me, this places man at the center of cause, and the effect is a change of climate that has only been rarely recorded in history. All of which is based upon, carbon dating.

I theorize that Al Gore is making bank on scare tactics and is selling a future called carbon credits that allow some to feel at ease because he received an award about publicizing previously documented historical research that many already are aware of. In fact, many movies of recent blockbuster status feature this phenomenon, could it be, we are headed into a historically documented but unpredictable change to the physical environment that many know as, an "Ice Age"? :2cents:

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

But, he lied about one thing to get another thing entirely. What was untrue or inaccurate in Al Gore's movie, doesn't change the overall message. The message didn't for example, suddenly turn into "Let's attack Russia" from "Global warming is destroying our planet". People feel bush did a complete number on them. I feel Al Gore didn't, as the fact still remains that global warming is a huge threat.

The only way we could say that these situations are/were similiar is if I go back to my earlier example. If we were told there were 20 WMD's and we ended up with 10 I would say "Well, his info. had some inacuraccies in it but overall he was correct. There were WMD's and that's what we were told and that's what we got". Instead, we got none, but were told that Saddam was better off dead anyways. Can I get a 'Wtf was that about?'.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

Yes, of course you can.

"Sen. Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-Mich.) announced Wednesday the finding of over 500 munitions or weapons of mass destruction, specifically "sarin- and mustard-filled projectiles," in Iraq.

Reading from unclassified portions of a document developed by the U.S. intelligence community, Santorum said, "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist.""

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

<font color="plum">While I really don't want to go off on yet another tangent, there are a couple of considerations that should be remembered about the WoMDs. First, the U.N. tried using sanctions against Saddam Hussein for 12 years because they also believed he had manufactured WoMDs. The UN also demanded access to sites they believe contained these WoMDs on several occasions and Saddam consistently denied their request for several weeks each time. After 3-4 weeks, he would capitulate and allow the officials to inspect the chosen site. Is it really a surprise these places were clean when the inspectors got there? Yes, it's possible they were never there to begin with. But just imagine the police calling a suspected drug dealer and saying "We have a search warrant for your house" and the drug dealer saying "I cannot allow you access at this time." The police continue making requests followed by demands and finally search the house 3 weeks later. Does the fact that they find no drugs mean they were wrong about the guy being a drug dealer? Or is it possible he has removed all evidence of his drugs from the home and stored them in another location.

Saddam had 12 years to play this shell game with any WoMDs he may have had. He had another year before the U.S. military seized control of is country and began having access to search facilities themselves. Some trace evidence was found, but nothing on the scale expected. Maybe they never existed, or maybe Saddam had ample time to destroy all evidence or move them to an allied country. We'll never know for sure.

The comparison between the War in Iraq and global warmer are valid. Removing Saddam Hussein was always the goal of the invasion. But GWB apparantly didn't feel that goal alone would convince Congress to give him the green light for military action, so it's seems pretty certain he exaggerated the threat of WoMDs to get approval for his goal. Al Gore also exaggerates the threat in his message to get the end result he wants.

The two messages are not as dissimilar as they may appear.</font>

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

I agree, this is a whole other nutshell to open up, and god knows we've opened enough of 'em. I want to stay on course at least with our first tangent and wrap up that by saying this.

I still think the comparison is invalid. I don't want to get into why he did or how he did it, since there may have been WMD's at one time or even when he said there was. All I am looking at is the comparison made between what is currently accepted truth with GWB's actions concerning the WMD's and what is currently accepted truth with Al Gore's actions concerning his movie.

So going on that, Bush didn't exaggerate the existence of WMD's he created it. He knew the goal was something else (Saddam) but the american people and congress needed more like you said, so imminent threat of terror via these great weapons worked well. Later, he did indeed say Saddam was a bad guy and deserved to be ousted, and I do agree with that fact. But, you know the tired old line by now...it just wasn't the point.

If Al Gore came out and said "You know that movie I made?" It was all BS and I, along with the other scientists of the world, made it all up because we just don't like smog and think that our waters and air should be clean so we can appreciate how they look naturally" then i'd feel the same. I'd be calling him all kinds of expletives because he sold me on something that was an entire fabrication. Even though I don't like smog or dirty waters i'd still feel like a number was done on me, and never trust anything the man says ever again. Because he would be creating falsehoods to achieve something we were misled to believe required action which would benefit us all, even though it would only benefit his personal desires. But he hasn't done that.

Re: Barak Obama - Heir Apparant
 

I'm going to turn a deliberate pun here, but the fact that the UN suspected that Iraq had WMD's for 12 years, and played Saddam's shell game is kind of an Inconvenient Truth when you say that GW fabricated the threat of WMD's.