Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">Well, the KKK will certainly be glad to know they can start burning crosses in public again - since nobody has the right not to be offended by their free expression. Hey, who knows, maybe they can even start using the "N-word" openly again. After all - our Constitution does supposedly grant them the right to free speech, right?

Wrong! Because very few rights are absolute. You have the right to express yourself up to the point that it infringes upon the right of someone else.

But that is really an entirely different discussion. As I said before, video games do not qualify as "art" any more than backgammon or monopoly.

MY point is that companies should NOT produce games designed specifically around the player committing acts that are ILLEGAL in their country. That does not mean that you can't have any games that you enjoy. Just that games where the sole purpose is to indulge in acts of crime should not be an available outlet.

You like to play FPS games? Buy a hunting game. You want the "thrill" of enemies firing back? Duke Nuke'm, Doom, and any of the war-based games can provide that. The difference being that they provide an setting that is NOT realistic or available right outside your front door. You can't go out and shoot aliens and most players can't run out and jump in a tank and start shooting at enemy soldiers.

You like fighting hand-to-hand? There are any number of "fighting" games available where you can pit your skills against another opponent one-on-one. Mortal Combat, Soul Caliber, Tekken, etc. These games have do have violence, but the violence is not done while doing something ILLEGAL. Rather, it is more like a simulated boxing or MMA match.

You want to drive fast cars? There are as many racing games as there are fighting games.

You want to simulate being with a prostitute? I suppose you could get SIMS 2. But if that's your thing, it seems like any one of the gazillion internet porn sites would provide a better outlet for that.

This is not about preventing companies from designing exciting games and make lots of dollars. It IS about companies exercising common sense and not producing games that glorify illegal acts and reward players for pretending to be a successful criminal.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Well now you're aware. :-)

http://www.adl.org/international/le-pen_new.asp
http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/breaking/109233.html
http://www.antisemitism.org.il/eng/struggle/page/6

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Actually Cerek my brother, I would say that video games are art. At the very least they contain myriad art forms:

Story
Moving picture art
Music
Illustration or captured photography or motion capture etc etc.

It's a form of interactive art - like a concert, illusionist or comedian that may have audience participation within defined parameters.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">That's where we disagree. Do you consider Asteroids, Donkey Kong and Pacman to be art as well? I certainly don't and I doubt many others do either.
Just because technology has become more advanced doesn't mean video games have stopped being games and become art.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Planescape Torment, Ultima VII - if they don't qualify as art, then I don't know what does...but that's another topic altogether.

One overlooked theme that I attempted to introduce into the Australian Fallout 3 debate and would also like to emphasise here, is the vital importance of education.

The more effort we put into creating reflective practices within our most vulnerable members of society, the less likely we are to see these kinds of acts occuring. This is why I can forsee full units in school subjects like english and IT on the study of video games and the effects on culture becoming more widespread.

We simply need to be able to create a mindset that is reflective about gaming habits and its core issues (such as the morality vacuum in 'sandbox games', which I mentioned.)

I loathe the GTA games from a conceptual point of view, but I'll certainly defend the right of the company to make it. It's up to the consumers at large to educate themselves and indeed others to make informed decisions on the choices they make between the virtual and real world.
I think this is far more important than having some sort of inflexibly dogmatic and patronising morality imposed upon a creators vision for what games can and can't be.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Could you explain this a bit further? What exactly do you mean by "games" and what differentiates them from art?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">I cannot defend a companies "right" to design and mass produce a product that promotes anti-social behavior. This is not a question of morality, this is about designing a game with the specific intent of having the player violate the rules of society. It isn't about the player trying to decide if he/she should steal a car to get their spouse to a hospital because he/she has just been shot. It's about becoming proficient and stealing cars merely for the sake of stealing. No matter how you sugarcoat it, stealing and killing is illegal in every society on Earth. To design a game that rewards and promotes this activity is irresponsible at best and criminally negligent at worst.

Critics always complain about the "slippery slope" of censorship. If we censor this game, then the government will feel empowered to start censoring other games and the cycle will self-repeat until there is no stopping it. There have already been posts to that effect in this thread. The problem they ignore is that the "slippery slope" slides both ways. If we condone material that is clearly anti-social by claiming companies have a "right" to produce what they want and adults have a "right" to decide for themselves whether to play it or not, then that example can be extended as well.

If we extend the theory that artists have the "right" to produce what they want, then there is nothing to prevent an "artist" taking pictures of a man brutally raping a woman and hanging them in a gallery under the guise of "harsh realities of society".

When we allow games and "art" to promote anti-social behavior, the only result we can expect is that people will interpret that to mean that the anti-social behavior is really acceptable, so there will be an increase in the behavior.

Anything that promotes such behavior should be just as illegal as the behavior it promotes.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum"><font color="white">art1 Audio Help /ɑrt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahrt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.
2. the class of objects subject to aesthetic criteria; works of art collectively, as paintings, sculptures, or drawings: a museum of art; an art collection.
3. a field, genre, or category of art: Dance is an art.
4. the fine arts collectively, often excluding architecture: art and architecture.
5. any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art.
6. (in printed matter) illustrative or decorative material: Is there any art with the copy for this story?
7. the principles or methods governing any craft or branch of learning: the art of baking; the art of selling.
8. the craft or trade using these principles or methods.
9. skill in conducting any human activity: a master at the art of conversation.
10. a branch of learning or university study, esp. one of the fine arts or the humanities, as music, philosophy, or literature.
11. arts,
a. (used with a singular verb) the humanities: a college of arts and sciences.
b. (used with a plural verb) liberal arts.
12. skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.
13. trickery; cunning: glib and devious art.
14. studied action; artificiality in behavior.
15. an artifice or artful device: the innumerable arts and wiles of politics.
16. Archaic. science, learning, or scholarship. </font>

This is a fairly comprehensive list of the different definitions of "art". However, I think we can agree that anyone who claims video games are "art" are basing their opinion on definition 1. I simply don't believe a game qualifies as "art" under that (or any) definition.

To differentiate further, "art" can be defined as a medium used by a person or group to express a viewpoint or highlight an issue, the purpose of which is to evoke an intellectual or emotional response from others. A "game" can be defined as an activity to entertain an individual or group.

The two are NOT the same. Checkers can be entertaining, but I don't think many people would qualify the game itself as "art". The same applies to video games.

During the early days of arcade games, graphics were terribly simplistic. While these games were hugely popular and entertaining, nobody considered promoting them as a form of art - because it was still just a game. Technology has advanced to the point where the presentation of the game is much more advanced. The images themselves might be considered artistic, but that does NOT make the game a form of "art". If someone paints an elaborate picture on checkers, the pieces may be considered artistic, but the game itself has not changed. Checkers hasn't suddenly become "art" because the board or pieces are painted differently.

Monopoly is a great example. The playing board and game pieces have been adapted to dozens of different themes and pasttimes, but the that doesn't mean that monopoly is now a form of art - it is still a game, nothing more. The rules haven't changed and it's value to society as a whole has not been increased just because the board has different pictures and the pieces are molded into different shapes. </font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I sure do Cerek.

Stick figures drawn on cave walls are art.

Just because technology has given us canvases, frames and better paints, as well as more adept painting techniques doesn't negate the art involved in creating pictures that tell stories.

In "asteroids" there are human-created symbols that depict asteroids. They are not actual asteroids, therefore that is art. The use of colour in pictures is also art. Comic books have "colorists" for example, while some paintings are just one colour.

I do believe your definition of art needs to be expanded, for I played Morrowind pretty much because of the moving art. It then reinforced my ability to see the whole planet as God's work of art.

In that sense the game, not only moved me with breathtaking images and sounds, but also inspired a deeper connection with the divine, while affecting my view of my everyday surroundings. How is this not the highest definition of art?

Just because a game may not move you, doesn't mean that it's not art.

However, all that said, "art" doesn't guarantee unrestrained freedom from responsibility either. Art is expression, and "free speech" has limits.
If a game were inciting anit-semitism I'm sure, like the others posted, France or Canada would prosecute the creators.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Crek, by your own definitions, computer games are art:

Morrowind, WoW, and countless other games are aesthetically pleasing. That is part of the pleasure in playing them. Immersion.

The same games contains drawings that shift perspective as the player moves their frame of reference. 3 dimensionality is greater art than 2 dimensions. Perspective was a development in art, as we moved from heiroglyphic 2 dimensional Egyptian art, into art that created the illusion of depth.

Computer games, as said, contain the artistic categories of music, image creation, storywriting, and acting.
Like the movie, which contains these things, the game also becomes a category itself.

Games are not architecture.

Games contain these.

Most assuredly Cerek. "Copy" is text that goes with picture. Anytime you read or hear words in a game, you are hearing/reading "copy" that goes along with the decorative, or illustrated pictures.


The Art of game design, game creation.

It takes skill to compose music, construct a story, act in character and design a picture. Games take skill to create.

This itself is an expanded definition. Philosophy doesn't fit your description, yet is included here.

As I put forth, under all your definition, games qualify.

As said, games most assuredly CAN be used in this manner. An educative game used in schools to teach history. A games used to forward environmental, spiritual or philisophical values. A key cause for concern is how many kids absorb the values espoused in certain games.

I see philosophies promoted in certain games constantly re-communicated by kids on forums for example. Cerek, games are art!

Chess pieces are artistic! Crafted, representative and beautiful.

By your above definitions, one could call playing chess, "the art of playing chess" as it requires such skill, planning and mental function that one can better with time, practice and study.

I believe I covered this in my above post. Stick figures drawn on cave walls are early forms of human art. Technology allows us to create more developed art.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Euh, no. Mature video games are not targeted toward teens. You're living in the past. Gamers have aged and so have the games made for them. Video games aren't different than movies; some are for adults, some are for kids. Claiming all movies are for kids would be absolutely ridiculous, and so would claiming all games are for kids is. It's simply an entertainment source, a multimedia format, a way to transfer information. It isn't any different than a book or a movie. It's not "a toy" any more than movies and books are toys. There isn't any default age for video games just as there is no default age for books or movies.

Games are clearly labelled with what ages they are appropriate for. TV ads clearly state what age the game they advertise are made for. Many shops refuse to carry Mature games, and over here all of them that do refuse to sell them to minors. I think that alleviate their responsibility just fine. They're <i>clearly</i> stating these products <i>aren't for kids</i>. What else could they do?

But you know what? You're all rambling for nothing. It's all only hot air, because times and times again laws attempting to restrict video games sales or production have been shot down in courts as unconstitutional. In fact in the last three years such laws were shut down in Minnesota, Illinois, Michigan and California. Even the "Hot Coffee" class action lawsuit wasn't successful.

Your judges and constitutional experts have spoken. Video Games are just a age-neutral method of expression. It's not "a kid's toy".

Parenting is hard. Shifting the blame is easy.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Believe me Cerek, I was a game addict in large part because I was addicted to the stimulus I was receiving from the art. ;)

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

That may well be the case bro, but kids play "adult" games and vice versa.
I had a large number of WoW groups ruined because some 11 year old was playing a character.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Rambling for nothing? A page or so back you were screaming about how I wanted to ban games and lighters. Even though I never mentioned banning anything. And then you say that people are blowing hot air?

With all due respect, just because you're upset that some people want these games restricted and their content at least monitored (and believe that the current implementation of these actions isn't working), does not equal rambling about nothing. Your other post was more about you venting and that we should ban everything for no afformentioned reason other than you not liking where the thread was going.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Who's constitution? I am Australian and my government has successfully banned certain games from sale. There was a thread posted recently about Fallout 3 for example.

Secondly, this thread is about a case in THAILAND.

Thirdly I posted the results of French, German and your own Canadian laws re. free speech vs hate crimes.

Lose the Americacentricity man. It's not helpful. This is a world issue. America's constitution is irrelevent.





Expression isn't neutral but contains the morality of the speaker, and as such, the speaker is often convicted because of that expression. (See my post on hate crimes convictions)

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I find this humorous because Luvian is (AFAIK) Quebecois, which is a different version of Canadian that by definition, is smarter, better looking, and more handsomely compensated than the average Canadian.

Or at least that's what my Quebecois relatives tell me ;)

All said, we're back to a worldwide definition... of either art, or what's good, or what should be banned, or what beliefs people should have. The world isn't there yet, however, as evidenced by the ongoing conflicts in so many places throughout the world.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I wasn't addressing you, although I heard there was a move being made in Australia to have a 18+ category added.

Let's be honest here. If there's a move to be made to affect the game industry it has to come from the US. Australia is only a relatively small secondary market. It never stopped Mature games from being published and it never will no matter what laws get made down there.

I'm not trying to be rude, it's just the truth. Just look at how long it can take games to get down there compared to the rest of the world. The American market is American companies' main market. They're much more concerned about what they can do at home than they are about what will pass in some foreign country.

And even as far as foreign countries goes, not many countries are opposed to Mature content. The Japanese obviously have nothing against mature video games, and I haven't seen any mature games banned in western Europe. Oftentimes it the opposite, European games getting censored for the US, as was The Witcher.

No, if any change is to come to the game industry as far as Mature content goes and that change is to have any effect, it has to come from where most of these games are made and sold. The USA.

And yes, I'm Quebecois. Just like gaming laws in Australia won't have any effect on the American Game industry, so to do laws from Quebec means nothing to them. It's a good thing then that we have simply decided to strictly enforce the age restriction and keep inappropriate games away from minors.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Cerek, I think there is an important difference between reward and promotion. GTA rewards stealing cars but it doesn't promote stealing cars, in the same way that Asteroids rewards flying a ship into space and shooting rocks, but doesn't promote flying a ship into space and shooting rocks.

I don't know if you've ever played a GTA game, but Rockstar are very good at satire. They very often subtly ridicule/undermine the criminal culture of the protagonists they are portraying. Sure, the humour/irony may be lost on some people, but my previous point still stands.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I'm afraid I don't see the difference between rewarding something and promoting it. You've heard of positive reinforcement, haven't you? In order to "promote" a given behavior, you can "reward" the one who successfully attempts the behavior. Are the words different? yes, but one leads to the other. By rewarding the behavior in-game, they potentially promote the behavior in RL.

As discussed previously, this can be avoided by "successfully" restricting who has access to these kinds of games. A task that I think we've already stated is much easier said than done, and rely's heavily on the education and participation of parents/adult guardians.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I have a question. In the states could a kid buy a mature game by himself from a shop?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Anyone susceptible to positive reinforcement is probably too young to be playing the game in the first place. Where's the problem?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Sad to say, but yes. Not from any shop, mind you, but only a few like Target and I believe Wal-mart really enforce the age limit.

I suspect that your point is stores aren't doing their part either. For the most part you would be correct.

Jaradu, I wasn't aware that there was an age where positive reinforcement no longer held any sway. As we mature and develope our own values and principles we may become less susceptible, but we can still be influenced by positive reinforcement. Nothing says keep doing what your doing like an ego boosting comment or a raise in pay.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I acknowledged his Canadianship in my post to him. ;-)

Americentricity is not limited to Americans. :D

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Anyone of any age can be influences by positive or negative reinforcement. Anyone who learns can still moderate behaviour due to positive reinforcement.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">My comment was that games are marketed towards teens and young adults and I stand by that. To claim otherwise is naive. I don't think GTA is aimed for the "middle-aged gamer" in any shape, form or fashion.</font>

<font color="plum">I think we have effectively concluded these measures do not work well, if at all.
What else could game manufacturers do? Simply STOP making games that require such measures in the first place. If you don't make a game that requires an "M" rating, you don't have to worry about some underaged teen skirting the system and buying it.
The rating system also ignores the fact that the buyer may be old enough for the game, but have siblings at home that are not. I know firsthand that ANY game I bring home cannot be measured by what is acceptable for my 11 yr old. Instead, I have to determine what is acceptable for the 6 yr old because all three boys will end up playing - or at least watching - the game.</font>

<font color="plum">The boy in question was 18, which technically makes him an adult. So he can ignore the "parenting" he has been subjected to. This is even more true for young adults who don't live with their parents.

So, to restate my own quote - "Playing games is fun. Shifting blame is easy."

A young adult imitates a game? Well that kid must have been nuts already before ever playing the game, cuz the game certainly couldn't have had any bearing on his actions. So don't take away my game cause I like playing it and I don't want to find a different game that doesn't emulate breaking society's rules cause I think it's fun and besides I'm not going to REALLY go out and try to steal a car to see if it's as easy as it is in the game. Did I mention the kid who DID do that must have been crazy already? :rolleyes:</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">Allow me to be a little more blunt than my comrades.

BULLPUCKEY!

If you're boss tells you every day what a lousy job your doing and what a crappy worker you are, are you going to whistle a happy tune and go on with your work? OR are you gonna look for a different job where the boss doesn't ride your a$$ all day and actually appreciates the work you do?

Be careful, if you choose option B, you've just made a decision based on positive reinforcement.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

<font color="plum">As <font color="yellow">Firestorm</font> said, it depends on the store. You're also ignoring the internet sales of the game.

As long as you have access to PayPal, Ebay isn't going to check your age. A teenage could easily take their parents credit card and order GTA from ANY online store - including Wal-Mart.

As stated before, the ratings systems do NOT work. Therefore, the simplest solution is to NOT create games that require a ratings system to begin with.</font>

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Good point about the internet purchases. And how many of our parents are internet savvy? E-currency is much more widely available now than it was say, 5 years ago. With paypal, internet cheques and e-credits not to mention of course, every internet outlet is accepting credit cards. My friend for example, sends her daughter into the store with her credit card. No questions are asked because the daughter can sign for her Mother. Usually she chooses "debit" and just inputs the pin code. It's even easier online because there's no face-to-face interaction.

I think there are two ways it can go. Either fix the system to properly regulate mature games or (worst case) do not distribute these games in mainstream stores at all. The second option is self-defeating in a way since the revenue made from these games wouldn't justify their creation, because they aren't selling to a mass audience. But, if and when this does happen, it is only because they have brought it on themselves.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

All rules are useless if you're willing to commit a crime to break them, it doesn't have anything specific to do with video games.

Kids manage to get their hands on alcohol, so I suppose we should stop creating alcohol too? Oh, they also manage to get their hands on firearms! I guess we need to stop creating firearms!

Oh no! Some kids could get his hands on his parent's car keys and go for a joyride, let's stop creating cars too!

What about lighters? Some kid could set fire to something. Let's stop creating lighters!

Do I need to go on, or can we simply agree "Let's stop creating things because a kid could get his hands on it" doesn't make much sense as an argument?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

But you're seeing it in black and white. Let's try to improve the system the prevents them "getting their hands on it" before we start considering destroying it completely. It bears noting that the only reason we have come to talk about this is because the system is broken to begin with. So instead of screaming "let's ban everything" let's look into fixing it first!

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I might just have to add that word to my vocabulary!

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Again, very well said. Hear hear.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I know and I'm all for fixing the rules where they are deficient (the US retail chains for example) but it seem Cerek think the best solution is to ban the content he personally disagrees with, no matter the fact his courts have deemed that unconstitutional.

I wish I could ignore my country's laws that I disagrees with while at the same time try to push other laws on my fellow citizens. It sounds useful, and my opinion of what is right and wrong is obviously better than theirs.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

That sounded like a suggestion from Cerek, not an advocation of banning things from being created. What he said is true. The simplest solution IS to not create irresponsible games in the first place. SELF-REGULATION trumps all.

However, people won't self regulate, so there's nothing against banning stuff from sale. Create all you like, we just won't distribute it. This is the thinking behind hate crime laws. "Say it in private if you must, but don't try and foist such venom in the public sphere where it damages people."

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Luvian do you have kids?
Is playing a game more important than your kid's health?
To be hypothetical, would you self-limit, and stop playing games altogether if it were proven that the health of your kid was being affected?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

First of all there is a problem if you play Mature games in front of your kids. Second of all there is a problem if you play games instead of raising your kids. And thirdly a hobby--any hobby--is supposed to balanced with the rest of your schedule.

If you look at my sig you should see I spent 4 hours playing video games this week. Coincidentally, the game in question has nudity, alcohol and dismemberment. Here's a guess but I'd go so far as to say most people would be able to spend those 4 weekly hours when the kids are asleep or away from the house.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

That's not answering the question Luvian. ;)
Would you self-limit and stop playing games entirely, if it was proven your playing games harmed their health?

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Damn! I *KNEW* that reading thing would bite me sooner or later ;) Guess I'll have to practice more...

On topic, I know that I have different standards for games that I play and ones that my kids play. I'm allowed more grown-up content than they are ;) At some point, they'll be allowed more grown-up content than they are now. It's all a process of evaluating and re-evaluating them.

Getting back to the main point of the thread, banning the game in Thailand, I offer the question of ignorance. Those who don't play games don't understand them and don't know how to deal with them. Ergo, they choose to ban them because that (in my opinion) offers them the least-risk option of being wrong.

If it is a problem and you ban it, you win.

If it is not a problem and you don't ban, you win... kind of.

If it is not a problem and you ban, you lose... kind of.

If it is a problem and you don't ban, you lose.

There's a big "if" leading off all those, to be sure. And the payoff is quite different between winning and losing from both personal and societal levels.

Banning is really a bandaid in my mind. It prevents you from having discussions with youths to make appropriate decisions for appropriate reasons with appropriate consideration for consequences. And the real goal of a parent (or at least my goal :D ) is raising your kids so they can leave the house successfully. Banning prevents them from doing that.

Ultimately, I can't be sure of what the results are going to be for anyone else's kids. I can, however, work on the results for *my* kids. Perhaps self-realization is a holy grail of some sort, but it's one worth searching for.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

Taken at face value the question doesn't make any sense. After all if they are not exposed to it how can they be affected?

But that's not the point since this is a trick question. The person answer yes then you'd say "Har har! Secondary exposure through society! You see you were for banning games all along and you just didn't know it!"

Which is a ridiculous argument. Would you stop using firearms if it was proven they could harm children's health? Would you stop drinking if it was proven it could harm their health? Would you stop driving? Would you stop using fire? Would you stop using electricity? Cutlery? Pretty much everything can harm children.

Re: Grand Theft Auto inspires Thai murder
 

I don't think it's an issue of blanketly banning the game, but perhaps declaring culpability where provable situations are beyond a doubt?

Dunno...

If that ever happened that would create some self-regulation pretty quickly I'd say.

At least we need to create bigger hurdles for mass distributing games that have the protagonist rewarded for illegal acts. Banning or limiting public advertising, like we do for cigarettes would be one such idea for example.