So, those that don't do it are not normal americans? So this mean you don't have to d it, but if you don't, you're not a real american? </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=aqua>But you didn't quote the entire idea. :wack: [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

Here's the whole idea....</font>

<font color=aqua>Normal Americans wouldn't force and/or punish those who choose not to participate in the pledge, just as other normal Americans who don't feel the need to say the pledge wouldn't try to stop and/or punish someone who chooses to say the pledge.

I can see how the "Normal Americans" comment could have been misinterpreted, so just to clarify, the normal in my previous post refers to those normal Americans who respect other normal Americans right NOT to say the pledge. [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D </font>

[ 06-11-2003, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

in argentina when you graduate from highschool you pledge your allegiance to the flag in a ceremony (supposedly because thats when you are old enough to make the decision for yourself).

also the argentinian anthem is quite... belicose. it was composed during the war of independence against the spaniards first and the english later, and it ends with the words "with strength and honor we shall live, or we swear to die with glory" repeated 3 times. its not bad rithmically actually, and it can get quite emotional. now its sung at sporting events mostly. ;)

[ 06-11-2003, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: norompanlasolas ]

personally I'm a big fan of Australia's unofficial anthem "Waltzing Matilda" c'mon, how could you not like that song???

To both Ronn and Timber (I know you're gonna show up here eventually and start your lawyer stuff ;) ): I seem to remember that there was this father of a child who refused to send his daughter/son/whatever to school because of the pledge of allegiance every day. He didn't want his kid to be 'indoctrinated' or something like that, by being forced to say the pledge of allegiance every day.
I can't help to be confused if you guys say it's voluntary and this father prevents his kid from going to school, when the kid can also refuse to say the pledge. I can be mistaken, of course, but I just wish this could be clarified, at least for my own sake.

On a more general note; why is it that the Americans (not only Americans on this forum, but generally speaking as well) feel so attacked when people from another country disagree with what you think? I mean; I look at the first American reply in this thread (no offense, and it's just an example) and the first thing that is done is quoting another one's opinion and fall into heavy defense, when it's just a stated opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. We are not attacking you, and by jumping to defense mode: code red, you only make it harder for yourself than is necessary. In my opinion, at least.

[ 06-11-2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Link ]

For the record someone could post "America is the great satan, in my opinion" And I might blink an eye and I may pity them, but my self-esteem would not be dampered and they are so wrong that I could only provide no response to keep my dignity.

Patriotism, for some, is the merging of personal identity with a national identity. This is part of the reason people take it personally, because to them it is personal.

Pledging metaphoricly being linked with racism or nazism is a concept that some wouldn't instantly grasp. Where as the misuse of patriotism under the guise of nationalism practically destroyed Europe, so I cant blame some people for drawing conclusions about the concept on the whole. There are dangers in unchecked patriotism.

I can also see the racism metaphor as well, but its more discrimination, than racism. Some patriots have a "holier than though" elitist aditude about their nation's structure, policies, and leadership. People do discriminate based on nationality. This type of discrimination becoming institutionalized another danger of unchecked patriotism.


What those some might want to consider is that the strength of American and British Patriotism: The love of country and for some, being willing to die in it's defense, did defeat those nazis.

edit[no disrespect to the many patriots of nations not mentioned who resisted the nazi's}

Eventually we are overcoming racism as well. I think democracy and tolerance creates the potential of a different brand of national identity and patriotism that is inoffensive. Not perfect, no one and nothing is. Loving ones country is not and need not be racism or facism.

[ 06-11-2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

It's almost like a pledge of alliegance isn't it? "We pledge to die as free men than live as criminals!" Yeah! I love that jolly fellow!

So, those that don't do it are not normal americans? So this mean you don't have to d it, but if you don't, you're not a real american? </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=aqua>But you didn't quote the entire idea. :wack: [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

Here's the whole idea....</font>

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: No one is forced to do it, it is voluntary, completely voluntary, and the people who don't do it are not stoned or even spit upon by normal Americans. Don't believe the hype. Can a news story be found were some lunatics acted out against someone who didn't participate in the pledge? Of course, but is that the norm? Absolutely not.

<font color=aqua>Normal Americans wouldn't force and/or punish those who choose not to participate in the pledge, just as other normal Americans who don't feel the need to say the pledge wouldn't try to stop and/or punish someone who chooses to say the pledge.

I can see how the "Normal Americans" comment could have been misinterpreted, so just to clarify, the normal in my previous post refers to those normal Americans who respect other normal Americans right NOT to say the pledge. </font> </font>[/QUOTE]I wasn't really serious, I knew your intention, but you have to admit that that quote made a tempting target. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well, they could leave the god part out and it wouldn't bother me. The part "and to the republic for which it stands" to me is the important part. You are pledging allegiance to the "idea" of the United States. The flag is just a symbol of the "idea" of America. The national anthem is another matter. It is a bit violent, rockets and bombs and such in it. Of course, there are other examples of violent national anthems. I believe the French national anthem has something in it about streets running with blood, but I could not be remembering correctly.

I actually had a feeling that we were rather singular in having a "pledge of allegiance" thing.

Heh heh, New Zealand's national anthem is 'God Defend New Zealand', which can be roughly interpreted as 'please don't hurt us' ;)

Pledging allegiance is fine in that it solidifies local group ties. Sort of 'we're all members of the same pack'. It can theoretically work to establish strong communal bonds and keep people in localised communities together, as well as form a sense of brotherhood amongst people who might not have anything to do with one another otherwise, which is a constructive thing in my opinion.

Now, the pledge isn't, and should never be, forced upon any individual. Some people have said along the lines of 'but people might not like me if I don't say the pledge', well so what? You are responsible for your own communal ties with the people you live with, both in your home and in your society. If your beliefs lead you to risk social isolation (such as refusing to say the pledge) then so be it. Have the willpower to see your convictions through, no matter what negativity might get thrown your way in doing so. Personal responsibility is a bitch man, but it goes with the territory if you truly want to be 'free'.

[ 06-11-2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Yes, it is, anmd I have no problem with America having a pledge (of course, if I did, I know you would all cease and desist immediately ;) ). I absolutely agree with your ideasd about personal responsibility, but try explaining that to a 7-year old who gets taunted in the playground because he doesn't join in. I don't think he'll grasp it. That's what gets me a bit about it - it's institutionalised in the schools. It takles youngesters rtight at the moment when they are the most impressionable and the least likely to have the force of personality to dissent, and impresses on them the kind of "We'll all spit on anyone who dares suggest there is somehting wrong with our country" mentality. "One nation, indivisable" - in other words, this suggests to the youngsters "If you dissent with America on some issue, you are breaking the pledge, and are not a true American"

Of course, this is all a foreigner's view on it all. Make of it what you will [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh definately. Young children are certainly more susceptible to peer pressure, especially in relation to matters which adults feel passionate about. However, in relation to thi it is up to the individual parents to ensure that their children recieve an even-handed approach to patriotism. Your neighbours may frown at the way you teach your children, but you can't let that act as a deterrant to you if it is something you feel strongly about, whether you be a 'patriot' or not.

When I was twelve there was a girl at my school who's family refused to give her the various 'consumer' products that the rest of us kids were raving about (television, action figures, computer games, trading cards etc). She was seen as a little wierd by some as she didn't really get involved in the child pop culture of the time, but she herself had been taught from day one to value her own individuality over the opinions of other people, and so she didn't mind what the other lad and lasses had to say about her lack of hair glitter and music CDs [img]smile.gif[/img] At the time I thought her family must have been a bunch of losers. Now, in retrospect, I can see how wise they were to not blindly give in to what their society tried to pressure them into thinking was 'normal'.

We can proclaim how we think other people should live until the cows come home. But all we really have the power to do is mind our own business, and get along with others in our community as respectfully as our individual beliefs allow [img]smile.gif[/img] We humans can't survive on our own, we need an inter-dependant community to provide us with the necesities of life. But we need not sacrifice the integrity of our own sovereign principles in order to appease an angry or offended mob. So pledge your allegiance to the flag if you like, or don't, it's all perfectly fine so long as you are comfortable with who you are and why you do things the way you do.

And I know someone who's parent also didn't buy him anything either. He was getting ridiculed, harassed and picked on by the other childrens all the way from the first years at school to high school. Now he is doing drug, drinking, and stealing. He got arested a few times already. He now hate his familly and is stoned all the time.

If not being "in" is enough for a kid to be picked on all his life, I'd hate to see what they would do to one who would not seem patriotic.

You are underestimating the effect of peer pressure on a young kid or teen. Those years are the years in which you create your identity vision of yourself. If every one tell you you are shit, you will think you are shit.

Which is precisely why it becomes important for the family to provide both physical and moral support so that everyone won't be saying you are shit. Heh, now, to turn this into a debate would be completely contradicting whatever original point I may have had [img]smile.gif[/img] But I will say that peer pressure is in unavoidable part of living within a community, yet the strength of the support you recieve from family and friends can do alot to offset any negative habits or thought patterns that arise from constant degradation.

Now, if one is so unfortunate as to have no such support then one is placed in an incredibly dificult situation, but to bemoan this would be to bemoan fate itself. Some are blessed with loving support, some are not. Yet the point I am attempting to make is that the need for social acceptance and 'fitting in' cannot be made a legal issue, not because it 'should not' be, but because human desires are an unpredictable variable to which no law can be applied with any real consistency. It is up to the individual, be they child, adolescant or adult, to decide whether to make the necessary compromises to fit in smoothly with the other individuals of their society. To do so is a choice, not a requirement, and no matter the legislation that may be put in place the compromise of individuality can never be forced.

[ 06-12-2003, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

As many other Swedish people have already stated, we don´t have a pledge, we have an anthem that is "stolen" by Neo Nazi's.
Just wanted to say that by not singing the antheme we are agreeing to it being stolen. Stupidity.
I sing it ever national day and try to feel proud of my country, but it is getting more difficult.

I knew you weren't, and yes I did leave that one wide open for target practice...lol. [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

I vaguely remember the case, and if memory serves, that father did take his daughter out of school, but the point he was trying to make with that action and his law suit against the school wasn't that she shouldn't have to say the pledge, because she didn't have to say it. The father's grievance regarded the use of the word "God" in the pledge.

Some private schools may still say the pledge daily, but as far as I know, public schools do not. At least I know they don't in North Carolina.

If a kid get beaten and humiliated every days at school, it will take more than a little familial support to make him feel better. "Don't worry, son, all the kids at school might have broken 2 of your ribs, tied you in the school's yard and spit on you, but we love you..." http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...ons/icon15.gif

And that is if the kid even admit he is getting harassed.

So this kid at your school got treated like this and you did nothing to help him? This is what I'm talking about. It's up to individuals to decide how they interact with others. You can't deflect responsibility for how others are treated onto a state-run 'government' enterprise.

"The law failed him!"
"the government should have helped him!"

No, you should have helped him. And if helping him would have brought the wrath down onto you, then so be it. Don't blame personal weakness and indecision on other people's actions. It's all up to you.

So this kid at your school got treated like this and you did nothing to help him? This is what I'm talking about. It's up to individuals to decide how they interact with others. You can't deflect responsibility for how others are treated onto a state-run 'government' enterprise.

"The law failed him!"
"the government should have helped him!"

No, you should have helped him. And if helping him would have brought the wrath down onto you, then so be it. Don't blame personal weakness and indecision on other people's actions. It's all up to you. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not talking about someone I went to school with. I'm talking about someone younger than me.

U sing it every national day?
I never sing it exept when we have to in school [img]tongue.gif[/img]
This year the last school day was at the national day 6 june so we sang it then [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
I guess one of the reasons why I don't sing it is cause I don't know the whole lyric... [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Of course I do, I have done my service to this country. At least I should have the right to sing our national antheme without some messed up people trying to tell me that that is classed as racism? Or the otherway around for that matter as well.

Nothing wrong with being proud of ones country nor heritage.

Oki, for your sake then Lovisa... ;)

Du gamla, du fria

Du gamla, Du fria, Du fjällhöga nord
Du tysta, Du glädjerika sköna!
Jag hälsar Dig, vänaste land uppå jord,
Din sol, Din himmel, Dina ängder gröna.
Din sol, Din himmel, Dina ängder gröna.

Du tronar på minnen från fornstora dar,
då ärat Ditt namn flög över jorden.
Jag vet att Du är och Du blir vad du var.
Ja, jag vill leva jag vill dö i Norden.
Ja, jag vill leva jag vill dö i Norden.

Jag städs vill dig tjäna mitt älskade land,
din trohet till döden vill jag svära.
Din rätt, skall jag värna, med håg och med hand,
din fana, högt den bragderika bära.
din fana, högt den bragderika bära.

Med Gud skall jag kämpa, för hem och för härd,
för Sverige, den kära fosterjorden.
Jag byter Dig ej, mot allt i en värld
Nej, jag vill leva jag vill dö i Norden.
Nej, jag vill leva jag vill dö i Norden.

[ 06-13-2003, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: WOLFGIR ]

We don't have a pledge over here. We do have a national anthem, actually we got about three of them. Try to figure that one out.