<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Have we an authenticated copy of the note to inspect?
I would also submit that Ill use any word I please when addressing my son.
So I don't feel compelled to tell this guy which he can or cannot use.
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]as for inspecting the note, we will see about that. as for your choice of language, do you CARE abt your son truely, deeply, sincerely? or are you out to make him miserable? consider the difference. if your answer is no, then no, you shouldnt be lecturing him, and you have no right to BE his parent. if you dont give as much as you are required to, then you have no right to BE his parent. if on top of that, you talk like that in front of your son, then you have no right to BE his parent.

you are talking about being responsible here, not the kid's privacy, although the kid's prvicay is involved. the parents are responsible to guide the child to a rightful course at the same time responsible for respecting him/her, admiring him/her and protecting him/her from sinister harms.

so, I say, as long as a teenager is living in his/her parents (ESPECIALLY stepparents) house, there IS RIGHT TO PRIVACY.

wtf, if they parents do THEIR goddamn job well, you think the kids will go on an all out shooting?

[ 05-28-2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Ken Rauhl ]

Actually Cerek - yes. If the source of the money is sauceman's, and he is of age (18), then it is theft whether pr0n, CDs, games, or drugs were taken. The only arguement that a parent has in the case of drugs is "Be glad I didn't have you arrested". Everything else is legal for him to own.

I agree that the SF had every right to discipline, but destroying something that sauceman bought (assuming that they are destroyed and not just confiscated), for whatever reason is inexcusable. Just for comparison, what if sauceman had bought a car, and the SF took it to a junkyard or sold it without sauceman's permission? It shouldn't matter it the item(s) in question cost $1 or $10,000. This is wrongful destruction of property.

DISCLAIMER: As MagiK said, this is only one side of the story.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Ken what you SAY and what IS are two vastly seperate issues... in this case, you are wrong about the kids privacy..he gets as much or little as the paretn dictates, untill the kid is emancipated or he turns 18 AND moves out of their house. You kind of contradicted yourself with your last statement...claiming parents should do their job...well part of that job requires invading their kids privacy any time they feel that it is needful. </font>

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Ken what you SAY and what IS are two vastly seperate issues... in this case, you are wrong about the kids privacy..he gets as much or little as the paretn dictates, untill the kid is emancipated or he turns 18 AND moves out of their house. You kind of contradicted yourself with your last statement...claiming parents should do their job...well part of that job requires invading their kids privacy any time they feel that it is needful. </font> </font>[/QUOTE]jeez, I DONT believe this. heh, how old do you think a young man, who is about to graduate high school, is? do YOU go around violate your son's rights, privacy? DO YOU?

so... what you SAY and what IS may be two different things as well.

if it really happened the way Steven said it did, this SF of his had no right to do things the WAY he did. ok, fine, lets re-emphasize, it is VIOLATE we are talking about here, not privacy. fair? you can do whatever you want, but behaving like THAT is NOT what a dad should do.

[ 05-28-2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Ken Rauhl ]

Won't disagree with you MagiK .... except that the SF was still wrong in destroying (if such is the case) the items. I am not saying that sauceman should not have been discipined. I am saying that the SF was wrong in the chosen action. Yes, since sauceman is 18, his 'rents could toss him out, but that does not give them the right to destroy his property, nor does it give him the right to destroy theirs. Like I said, use the car comparison, since he IS old enough to buy one. Substitute car for games, and the SF is clearly wrong for the destruction.

Now, his 'rents were perfectly justified for disciplining him for bad grades. Especially on their dime.

Sauceman! Study harder! If you didn't like the course, you should have dropped it if it wasn't required!

Sauceman, it sounds like you and your stepdad don't see eye to eye on some things and forgive me for sounding like an old mother hen...LOL, (well, I AM old enough to be your mom and then some ;) ) but I wonder if some of your anger is due to the past disagreements you've had with him? I definitely do NOT think he should have destroyed or disposed of your games, but if he was truly acting in what he felt was your best interest- by which I mean if he thought that your game playing was interfering with your studying, then I understand why he and your mom wanted to take them away til you got your grades up.

BUT, I get the feeling this is about more than just the games, just this one time so my mother hen-type advice is for you to try talking with your parents about what bothers or concerns you and if you don't feel that can work or it doesn't work when you try it, then I'd have to recommend you sit tight and rough it out til you are graduated, working and can find your own place in a few years. I truly think it would be better ..well, let's say easier for you to stay where you are as it's not a simple thing to get a good, permanent job and a decent inexpensive place to live in most areas. Still if that's the only way you could find peace, then it's a possibility you'll have to consider.

I get the feeling that mostly you were ranting here because you were very angry at the time your games were taken and felt like your space and property were messed with. I can relate to that! My mom used to search my room all the time! Heck after I was in college she'd open and read my mail...which stopped very quickly when I pointed out it was a felony to do so. (I was over 18, paying my own way through college and never did live at home again for more than a visit after I left for my freshman year) But in your situation, there's not much that can legally be done about your games being taken and all you'll get out of that kind of thinking is more and more frustrated and angry. I guess my advice is simply to make do with the situation and if possible, to make the lines of communication with your folks clearer.

You and your stepdad don't have to be best buddies, so long as you are at least moderately civil acquaintances while you live there. ;)

<font color=deepskyblue>Just a reminder...your language here is a violation of the Terms of Service. Remember to keep things PG. ;) </font>

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
My son has whatever rights I allow him. He has no illusion however that,
a. he is in charge
b. his room is inviolate and won't be searched at my discreation
c. he makes the rules
d. he can do anythign about the rules untill he leaves the house.

I don't treat him like a slave, but I do retain my parentl rights and responsibilities to know exatly what he has and what he does and who he associates with (ok he is only 12 and this isn't as big a problem as it could be.) I have the feeling that you or steve would not like living in my home [img]smile.gif[/img] but My son knows the rules and seems reletively happy and non-destructive.

On second thought, he has the right to be fed, clothed, cared for and sheltered..those are his rights and my responsibilities...but all other rights are dictated by me...or my ex.

IF Steve's dad did everything exactly as steve said and there are no...unmentioned details forgotten...I think his Step father was within his rights to do exactly what he did....not that it would be nice...just within his rights. (this is predicated on the mother agreeing, the step issue comlicates things a bit) I think destroying the CD's was wasteful and overly harsh In my opinion, but parents/legal guardians are the ultimate authority in a child/young adult's life period...untill the federal or state governments step in. </font>

yeah yeah, been there done that, seen it all. Ziroc is lucky

Cloudbringer, sound advice. btw, I know what a bad temper is like.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I actually agree with you NS, I wouldn't have destroyed them (My dad burned a ton of my 1970's era comics because he thought they were a waste...now we both realize how much they would be worth today [img]smile.gif[/img] )

Mostly Im playing devils advocate here [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

That's OK MagiK, I'm just arguing both ends against the middle! ;)

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
As I said to Night Stalker, I am in part playing devils advocate and trying to make sure people are looking at both sides of the issue...Im not trying to negate what you said Sauceman, but I am also trying to point out the realities of being a parent and the level of responsibility that entails..it can put quite a LOT of pressure on a person and they may vent that pressure on their children some times.

I had a lot of that growing up...but in my case my father and I made our peace after I moved out and earned my own way in the world....now I look back and see yeah he was pretty harsh (far harsher than what you said about your step dad) and a lot of the violence I suffered was needless or over reaction...but..I can see the pressure he was under at the time and all in all I think the hard environment made me a stronger person and it didn't do any long term damage to me. If you are 18 then all I can say is grin and bear it...don't harbor grudges and reassess the situation as it is now a few years down the line and look at it from his side of the fence.

At 18 you will probably amass many times the number of games you may have lost
and maybe less tme gaming as a kid will let you broaden your horizons a bit? </font>

Majik

making the rules and respecting the rules is different from bending the rules and ignoring the rules to fit one's need or making some f-worded mess up rules.

you see, you are a good dad (and I tip my hat to you), but dont you have ANY illusion that just because YOU are a good parent that all other fathers out there ARE good parents. I have the feeling that you wont have any peace if you ever work for me, but then again, I shall promot you for being firm.

but, I am saying this with the doubt that I maybe wrong, what if Steven's mother fears/resents his stepdad as much as he does? a "bad" temper can mean a lot of things. all in all, we shouldnt continue this discussion here.

[ 05-28-2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Ken Rauhl ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I can agree with what you posted there Ken. And I do know there are some miserable pieces o shite out there posing as parents too....I wish, it were possible to keep unfit people from reproducing...but it ain't possible :( </font>

yeah yeah, been there done that, seen it all. Ziroc is lucky

</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=deepskyblue>How so? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] </font>

There is a difference between an adult discarding a kid's stuff, and an adult discarding another adult's stuff. Just because he is possibly not paying a part of the rent does not mean he does not have the right to own his own things.

<font color=deepskyblue>I agree that he should not have thrown the CD's away (and I still hold out hope that the mother intervened to prevent that). However, I also agree that the stepdad had a right to confiscate the games if he felt they were interfering with <font color=orange>sauceman's</font> school grades.</font>

<font color=deepskyblue>I agree that he should not have thrown the CD's away (and I still hold out hope that the mother intervened to prevent that). However, I also agree that the stepdad had a right to confiscate the games if he felt they were interfering with <font color=orange>sauceman's</font> school grades.</font> </font>[/QUOTE]That's where I disagree with you. He is an adult, his stepfather, or even his mother, have no more legal right over him. He is as much an adult as you. Are you saying your father would have the right to burn your house down if he felt you were not working hard enough at your job?

<font color=deepskyblue>I agree that he should not have thrown the CD's away (and I still hold out hope that the mother intervened to prevent that). However, I also agree that the stepdad had a right to confiscate the games if he felt they were interfering with <font color=orange>sauceman's</font> school grades.</font> </font>[/QUOTE]That's where I disagree with you. He is an adult, his stepfather, or even his mother, have no more legal right over him. He is as much an adult as you. Are you saying your father would have the right to burn your house down if he felt you were not working hard enough at your job? </font>[/QUOTE]In as much as I stand by what I've both posted here, and PM'd in response to certain other members, no. If an 18 year old wants his room to be private, then pay rent. Otherwise, buck up and do what needs to be done. While I vehemently disagree with the sf's actions, it is his house. I've had this debate with my 12 year old several times about who makes the rules, and why. If she wants to make the rules, then she can pay the bills. I work hard to keep this family going, and I don't feel that she has the right to dictate to me what will and will not happen in this house, unless, she is paying her own way.

There is something most of you don't seem to realize. He is an adult. His parents have no more authority on him than your parents do on you.

Living for free with his parents has no relevance. I could go live for free at my best friend's house, and I would still be owning everything I bought myself. He would have no right to discard my stuff or punish me in any way, the ONLY legal right he would have over me is that he can throw me out of he feel like it.

You are all thinking about your own children, and the keyword here here is children, as in kid, and giving biased opinions. Forget that the individual involved is his stepfather, this has no relevance in this destruction of material between two adults. They stoped having any legal authority over him when he became an adult, they have the right to throw him out, but he has as many right as them, including a right to privacy.

There is a huge difference between a 12 years girl and an adult.

[ 05-28-2003, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

<font color=deepskyblue>OK....now you're just getting ridiculous. Since I no longer live with my parents, then "NO", they have no authority over how I spend my money or my time - and they have no right to damage or destroy my property.

However, when I DID live at home and was attending high school and college, my parents most assuredly DID have authority over my actions. I was 19 when I got my first speeding ticket...and my dad took away my license for 3 months. I was an adult, but it was still HIS house, HIS car, and HIS rules. Age does not equal maturity.

The stepdad might be a Class A Buttwipe, but he is still paying the bills for <font color=orange>saucemans</font> education. He is also providing him a place to live and food to eat. That most assuredly DOES give him some authority over his actions - especially regarding his grades.

If <font color=orange>sauceman</font> moves out of the house, pays his own bills, and also pays for his own education...then he can tell his stepdad to [img]graemlins/finger.gif[/img]

I don't really know what you're looking for here, <font color=red>Luvian</font>. I've agreed that the stepdad should NOT have thrown the CD's in the trash. I also agreed it was a sleazy way to go about complaining about <font color=orange>saucemans</font> grades. The stepdad should have been mature enough himself to go directly to Steven and say "No more computer games until the Economics grade comes up". But he didn't...and the sad fact is that there isn't a great deal Steve can do about it right now. So the best thing he can do is follow the path of "least resistance" regarding his stepdad until his situation changes.</font>

What I'm trying to do is explain than a person who is of age to be considered an adult has no legal obligation to obey his parents, and the parents have no legal rights over the child (who is an adult).

You obeyed your parents while you were an adult and living with them, but you had no legal obligation to do so, maybe moral ones, but that's all.

Edit: And I'm not talking about maturity. You had every right to refuse giving him your driver license. He might have booted you from his house, but he had no right to punish you without your permssion. You accepted his punishment out of respect and moral obligation over your parents, but you had every right to refuse. That's what I'm trying to explain.

[ 05-28-2003, 10:56 PM: Message edited by: Luvian ]

goddamnit, all of you need to stop. Steven doesnt need most of the opinions posted here. didnt u guys notice he didnt even reply even though when he was on earlier?

Ken: I suggest a chill-out. Losing a bunch of games is not the end of the world, though it is regrettable. They can be replaced, one way or another. I don't condone sauceman's SF's actions, but I can understand them. Last I saw, no kid was born with an owner's manual, although you can buy a few hundred attempts at it at the store. Funny thing is that the more you read, the more you discover they offer conflicting stories -- one says left, the other says right.

And there are *definitely* no manuals issued when becoming a step-parent. I'm not sure I've seen a lot of those on the shelves.

In any case, parenting, from my now six-plus years of experience, is a lot of anticipation followed by flying by the seat of your pants. You make the best decisions you can in the situation, and hope that it was the right one. If not, you try to make it better later on.

I support the SF intervening to try to remove distractions to help sauceman get his grades up. I don't support the approach, especially if it involved actually throwing away a number of games; temporary confiscation is far better, IMHO. It's amazing what you can do when the power cable disappears... :D

When I was finishing high school (and you don't have to be 18 to finish, folks...), my dad explained the rules of his house, where I was living: his house, his rules. If I didn't like them, there was the door. I could discuss the rules, but they were there, and pretty straightforward. Curfew, chores... the list goes on, but not too long.

After I moved out, my dad used to joke about the rules. I've turned them back on him: my house, my rules. He agrees. In my house, he smokes outside, on the porch or in the garage. His house, wherever he wants.

One thing both of us know now -- neither one wants to live under the other's roof [img]smile.gif[/img] We've staked our turf, and we're keeping it.

Whose house is it? Whose food? Whose furniture? Whose car? Whose computer? Whose electricity? Truth is, as a child living under your parents' roof (be you two or twenty-two), there ain't a whole lot of fair. Parents can always bring out the "when you pay the mortgage..." argument, and you don't have a lot to fall back on.

Sauceman, I empathize with you; your situation stinks right now, and if I were you, I'd be counting the days to graduation and trying to figure out just where I was going to live after that. I might do some additional investigation to try to find out if the games are really gone, and I might also make sure that my SF knew just how much those games cost... that it wasn't 20 or 30 dollars or pounds, but a whole lot more than that.

Bottom line is that someone in the situation has to be an adult, or it can get way out of hand. If your SF is not being the adult well enough, you're best served by being the adult yourself. It sounds like you've been trying to do that all along, so I wish you peace and good luck as you make it through the next several weeks until you can put this behind you.

Peace.

*B*

Friendly reminder: take it easy on the language, mate. We're not prudes, and we don't mind a bit of cussing here and there, everyone does it. Just don't make a habit of it, eh? ;)

my mom is the same but i hide my games from now on ;)

Guys, I've been away & today (Thursday the 29th) is the first time I've read this thread. I've read the whole thread and I think I see something that no one else has picked up on.

Sauceman, you're a senior in HS with a job. Your grades are average to above average.

Q: Are you going to college after graduation?

I'm not trying to be nosey...its just that the point I'm about to make will be blown out of the water if you are. If you are not, then this may be step one towards someone trying to goad you into a fight to justify kicking you out of 'his' house.

I happen to work with a very enlightened neanderthal who is bragging about how he'll 'teach his step son' by making life so hard on him, he'll have to 'take charge of his life' (read as: move out of the new house my wife just bought). He happens to be playing games with his kid's head with car insurance and computer access too...but hasn't thrown anything out. He's making chessboard moves to 'mate' the kid out of the house though. Now, is my coworker a worthless waste of life to mess with his kid? Yes. But he's doing it and he's clever enough (and heartless enough) to pull it off.

Sauceman, maybe I'm Way off base here, but you better store your remaining CDs at your best friends house. You'll have to sit on your hands until graduation too (No Retaliation...you'll play into his hands). If you are moving out, ignore all of this until its time to move out and 99% of your stuff is moved (including your computer). Then make sure you move the TV & VCR out with you while the Jerk is at work. Should someone ask for it back (and he just might)tell him sure...right after he mails you the software CDs he 'borrowed'...

It is one of the reasons I am for abortion. Keeps unwanted people from procreating.

Oh wow...theres a lot going on here right now. Ill try to reply to as much as I can.

Ok, to all (robertthebard and Cerek in particular): I am indeed paying rent, that happened the day after I turned 18. As a matter of fact, I pay $300 a month for rent. I also buy all of my own cloths, my lunch and (on weeknights) dinner, and do various chores around the house like mowing the yards, cleaning the bathrooms, and the kitchen. That is part of the reason why I was so mad when he threw the games away, it took a lot of saving up to afford them.

MagiK You make good points, and I respect that we are indeed only hearing one side of the story, that you have not heard why my step father does what he does. Im sure, in his overly "agressive" way, he is doing what he believes will make me a stronger, more responsible human being.

Ken No, my step father doesnt have That kind of bad temper...If he did in anyway hit or physically my mother, I would hospitalize him. Please dont take that the wrong way, Im a very nonviolent person, but I will NOT allow someone I love to be physically abused. Also, the reason I didnt post when I was on earlier was, there was WAY too much to say in the 5 mins that I had before class started.

Night Stalker I agree entirely that someone should be disciplined if they dont take responsibility for themselves or thier actions. If I did drugs, or drank alot, then I would very much so want my parents to take the initiative and dicsipline me, search my room, that sort of thing. Because I dont want to become either a drug addict or an alcoholic.
I was not against my step father confiscating my comp for the last quarter of my junior year due to an "Absence problem". (I ditched two days of school the first semester) It got me back on track and I learned my lesson, dont skip out on school. On the last day of school, he returned my computer and all was well.

Cerek Thank you for your even headedness, you seem to have a very even view of how things seem to be. I would have been able to live with the fact that I didnt have games until either my grade came up, or my graduation. Both would have been perfectly justifiable in the eyes of parents and kids. But that is not the way he decided to handle it, sadly.

Bungleau Good points, the thing is, I do pay for pretty much everything I use or have.

Cristian LOL

quietman1920 A: I will be attending a nearby JC for 1-2 years, and then transfer to a Cal State, majoring in English. Eventually I will become either a journalist or an English Teacher.
And thanks for the suggestion, but Im not sure he would react calmly to that situation.

Luvian You seem to feel very strongly about this, and I dont want you to think Im against you in any way, but your agruement seems entirely based upon the fact that I am 18 years old. But I am still living in my parents home, and like many others here have said, "My House, My Rules", and I respect that it is indeed thier house, so I try to abide by the rules they lay down. Even though I do pay rent and do many other things to help out. (I really dont feel like listing them all, it would literally take an hour)

To everyone else that has posted thier opinion, I will try to respond to you tomorrow, but for now, I am totally wiped out from typing.

<font color=deepskyblue>Then I stand duly corrected. As I said before, you are extremely mature and responsible for your age. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Your step-dad should be proud of your maturity rather than focusing on your shortcomings.

My father and I had our own "battles" during my teen years. When I complained about my curfew or chores, one of his "patented answers" was "When you pay the bills, you can make the rules". Since you ARE paying rent (and most of the other expenses associated with your living there) then your stepdad definitely owes you a greater measure of respect and you SHOULD get to have a voice in the rules of the house (to a degree, anyway). And he should definitely replace the games if he did toss them.

On the bright side, you only have a few short months until you WILL be out of the house and able to make your own rules.</font>

Sauceman,

I'm very impressed with your maturity and responsibility for someone of your age (18, I assume). I left home when I was 15, shortly after graduating high school (I was somewhat gifted.) As soon as I was 14, I took a job at the local McDonalds and my father decided that since I was earning money, I should learn the value of such and pay rent.
I turned 16 that summer, got my drivers license, bought a '75 vega for $100 and moved to Vancouver to attend SFU. Life was hard, really hard. I had to work full time during the evening to pay for my bills, sometimes only being able to get a few hours of sleep a week.
I graduated with my degree, pursued a Masters as well, but I always hated my father for being so hard on me. I never talked to him since I left home. I attended his funeral 12 years later when I was 27 and now regret not having a relationship. The man I am today, I owe to my father, and although I hated him for being so hard on me, I hate myself more for not telling him just how much I loved him despite our differences. He died after two strokes and three heart attacks, and during his last hours he asked to see me. I refused. That was the biggest mistake of my life.
My mother told me that he was proud of me, and what I'd become. She'd say that he was constantly bragging about my success to anyone who would listen, but would never swallow his pride long enough to call me.

Dad, if you're watching. I love you. Thank you so very much for everything you taught me.

sauceman, you are doing far more at 18 than I did. You show much more responsibility and maturity, and since you're paying your way (through money and chores), in my book, you get to make some of the rules. I also grew up under the "no rent if you're going to school" rule.

That being said, it appears to me that your SF has little ground to take a stance on. I feel sorry for him; to drive a stake of separation between you two when you are already more capable of living on your own... methinks he will get his wish shortly. $300 per month makes a decent apartment (one bedroom) out here in sunny Michigan. Of course, that money doesn't go *quite* as far in California... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Like I think I said before, his, hers, and the truth. And with more of your story, more of the truth is coming out. You have my condolences. Good luck when you move out.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]TV thing withdrawn. Actually, my whole post is moot: best of luck at college, sauceman.


As for the cow-orker in my office, lets hope that none of you ever have to deal with such a Bone Head, inside or outside of family. (unusual as it may seem, his white hair & beard make him look like Santa Claus...although he's more like the Anti-Claus if yu ask me)