Actually, I'm working on that now [img]smile.gif[/img] . Paypal has a subscription thing, and each month, it'll take whatever you pledged each month! A really nifty tool!

I'm working on the page for it now, and I'll let ya know when it's up!

Ziroc, check your pm's.

Good, Dan, because I can afford the monthly thing a lot more than I can large amounts, sporadically.

Sorry but I can't contribute a single pound for a number of differant reasons, trust me they're good.

But what I feel like I have to say Ziroc is that I love this forum as much as the next member here, hell I've spent a half an hour at the least practically every day here (and on dial up that equals a lot of money) but its not worth it Ziroc if you're standard of living is suffering because you've got to keep this place running. If you're in the red so much couldn't you just let IW go inactive for a while until you've saved up enough money to get it up and running again? The decisions yours I know, I'm just saying if its in the name of the greater good Ziroc you've got my (and probably every other member's) full support to shut this site down.

On the other hand if you choose to leave it open and keep going through the bad times then I can't emphasise how much I respect that decision. To make a self sacrifice like that just to keep this site running is an action that invokes a feeling of respect within me for yourself. I'm sorry I can't contribute (I will when I'm older) and I hope this place keeps running for a long, long time. Good luck Ziroc.

PS-I'm sure you're aware of the fact that there is another option in the form of advertising links and even the dreaded pop-ups. Still if thats what it takes then I would do it. Like I said it's obviously your choice.

"Until all are one"

[ 03-30-2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Sigmar ]

How goes the membership drive, Z?? Are you gonna make it?

<font color=steelblue> Ya, how we doin? [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

Ok, had a training weekend for my rowing club the past days, so I didn't notice any of this. I promise to take care of it though; I'll try to donate something to you, Dan. Hang in there mate. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color=plum><font color=yellow>Ziroc</font> - After reading the thread and all the suggestions, I think <font color=tan>Timber</font> and <font color=orange>Attalus</font> have the best idea. I firmly believe that <font color=yellow>Ironworks</font> should be totally and completely supported by the members and that it shouldn't cost you anything (other than the copious amount of time you already put in).

I'm not suggesting making <font color=yellow>IW</font> a "Members Only" site. I remember the discussion concerning that from last summer. I agree that making it a "Pay" site would eliminate far too many of our members - especially the younger ones.

What I would like to see is a permanent "funds gauge" similar to the one we had for the first big Donation Drive a while back. Let us know exactly how much it costs to keep <font color=yellow>Ironworks</font> "up and running" each month, what day of the month the payment is needed by, and then set-up a "Marker" so that we can see how close we are each month. If the members saw that donations were a little low one month and the payment date was coming up, then we could prompt ourselves to increase the donations to meet that month's goal without you having to ask for it. Also, by knowing the amount needed each month, those who want to contribute on a regular basis could determine how much they need to donate each month.

Personally, I planned to start sending in a donation every month, but I simply forget to sometimes. With the "Monthly Marker" serving as a constant reminder, I would think that the donations would take care of themselves.

As for our current situation, it will be couple of weeks before I can help out this time. Payday comes this week, but it will take 4-5 days for the funds to be transferred to my PayPal account. I hope it won't be too late - so let us know how close (or far) we are.</font>

<font color=steelblue> Well said Cerek. I agree <font color=red>100%</font>. [img]graemlins/awesomework.gif[/img] </font>

bump.

How fare it, Z? The fact that IWF is still up *today* doesn't alleviate my concerns for the site.

we're getting paid tomorrow, hopefully we're not too in the red to help. nathan just got a great job and so i hope we can be more helpful in the future. i feel bad when all we can do is 1 or 2 dollars, but if you get the subscription thing going, like $5 a month from one or both of us my be possible, once we get someother bills paid. take care, and good luck, hopefully your paypal account will hear from our paypal account tomorrow.

<font color="#ffccff">I was for the monthly subscriiption fee the first time it was brought up [img]smile.gif[/img] And I will plunk down some $$$$ if Z can get a regularly electronicly billed thing going.....a fire and forget deduction monthly would work well for me. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

If theres going to be a monthly fee you got to post it everywere because i think alot of kids, like me, will have to leave the forum because our parents would get pissed if they got a bill in the mail! I was saving up to re-buy BG1 but I might send the money to you Z if my parents let me.

'Sides, you can buy BG1 for abpout $5 now [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think the idea is not compulsory subscriptions but voluntary ones from us older, longtime members, who most definitely donot want our favorite forum to close.

An optional fee would not send all the kiddies packin'. I like all you kiddies and want to see you hang around. Heck, I'm all for helping subsidize the next generation of RPG gamers - certainly a worthy cause. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

And, Kaltia, BG may only cost $5. It was $19 when I bought it. And I got SoA for about the same price. But then I spent $150 on an external hard drive to house multiple copies of the games, more $$ on expansions, $40 on a USB data device, etc. The point is that enjoying these games costs much more than the price of the games.

Plus, while BG is why I found IWF, at this point it is certainly no more than 20% of the value I take out of IWF. ;)

<font color="#ffccff">TL you're an addict ;) As Attalus said the site would not turn into a pay only, it would just allow us more established members to contribute to help keep the financials from being too burdensome on Z.</font>

[ 03-31-2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font color="plum">That is exactly the type of scenario we hope to avoid <font color=cyan>Dar'tanian</font>. We don't want to lose ANY members. Those who can donate realize that many others cannot - especially some of the younger members.

I remember what it was like in my teen years. That was looooong before computers were a "household appliance" and concepts like "internet" and "cyberspace" were only found in science fiction books. Still, there were a couple of organizations I had wanted to join when I was teenager...but I couldn't afford the annual fee....so I know where you're coming from.

With 11,000+ members, it should easy to bring in enough to cover the monthly expenses.</font>

<font color=steelblue> Sounds like we all agree that we as a community can do our best to subscribe to this forum. So how 'bout it Z, whats the goal for each month? You gonna share the info with us? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] :D </font>

There was a debate on how to fund IWF about a year ago, and every form of compulsory payment (members only areas, special avatars, anything you couldnt get without paying) was voted down. A fair proportion of members said they would leave if such things were introduced, as I recall. So you have no worries on that score. What is being discussed is a voluntary thing, no obligation nor reward.

"You are under no obligation to make a voluntary donation. However, if no without-obligation voluntary donations are recieved, this website will shut down. Have a nice day."

Pfft! Even the nonprofit Girl Scouts sell cookies.

Why not sell avatars, desktop images, Ironworks t-shirts, etc., with all proceeds going to the upkeep of Ironworks? I'm all for it, even if other people here are not. I know from experience that "voluntary" usually isn't. Since Ironworks has many >18 members, things might be different. Then again, it might not.

As far as I can tell, Ziroc is the ringleader of this circus. Many people support Ironworks, yes, but the cash for this place has to come from somewhere. Nobody goes to a website specifically to see banner ads or popups, but the cash for this place has to come from somewhere.

<font color=steelblue> Great idea! [img]graemlins/awesomework.gif[/img] IW T-Shirts! There is all kinds of stuff Z could sell. But wait...there is the whole tax thing. And then we would all be fighting over some "first issue" "mint condition" Avatar. It could get messy. I need to get the gibbies back in training. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] </font>

On the banner and/or pop-up issue, if it comes to that (see the frontpage of the site, BTW), I vote that banners are preferred to pop-ups. ;)

"You are under no obligation to make a voluntary donation. However, if no without-obligation voluntary donations are recieved, this website will shut down. Have a nice day."

Pfft! Even the nonprofit Girl Scouts sell cookies.

Why not sell avatars, desktop images, Ironworks t-shirts, etc., with all proceeds going to the upkeep of Ironworks? I'm all for it, even if other people here are not. I know from experience that "voluntary" usually isn't. Since Ironworks has many >18 members, things might be different. Then again, it might not.

As far as I can tell, Ziroc is the ringleader of this circus. Many people support Ironworks, yes, but the cash for this place has to come from somewhere. Nobody goes to a website specifically to see banner ads or popups, but the cash for this place has to come from somewhere.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=plum>ALL of these ideas were discussed - and considered - several months ago. The idea of "special avatars" was <font color=yellow>EXTREMELY</font> divisive. Many people felt it would create a "caste system" and were completly against it. Several long-term members threatened to leave if it occurred.

<font color=yellow>Ironworks merchandise</font> was another suggestion. Everything from T-shirts and coffee mugs to mouse pads. All good ideas...but these cost money to make and would require even more of <font color=yellow>Ziroc's</font> time as he tried to keep up with the orders, account for the money coming in, and ship the merchandise out.

We also discussed banners and pop-ups. But in the end....NONE of these measures were necessary - because the MEMBERS pitched in and donated enough money to meet the need....and it was a huge chunk of change at the time (around $2,000.00 for the new server and other expenses).

If I recall correctly, the monthly cost for <font color=yellow>Ironworks</font> is somewhere around $250.00. All that would require is 25 members donating $10.00 per month. That's 25 people out of 11,000 - it should be easy enough to reach. Even if the costs are a little higher, it still shouldn't take more than 50 members donating regularly to meet the goal every month.

I've kept my opinions to myself on this issue since the last discussion, because their was a lot of emotion on both sides. I received a very "biting" remark from one member because I supported the use of special avatars for regular contributers. Since I was in the minority, and things were starting to get a little ugly, I just decided to keep quiet on the issue. But I've given it a lot of thought over the months and I truly believe this to be the best overall solution.

A few "established members" (as <font color=lime>Magik</font> so eloquently put it) willing and able to shoulder the cost of keeping <font color=yellow>Ironworks</font> running with no obligation or recognition placed on anybody. That would give Dan one less thing to worry about each month while keeping <font color=yellow>IW</font> available for all of us.</font>

Call me stupid, but there does not have to be anything formally in place. I mean, there is nothing preventing any members from sending a monthly donation. If anyone wants to do that, they could start today. I mean, Z does not have to get something formal in place. It would save alot of wear and tear on Z for people do just do it and him not have to take the time to set up something.

We are not talking thousands of dollars a month here either. As I said before, if a handful of people would commit to send modest amounts each month, Dan would never have to make another post like this again.

Sure, Reeka, but an automatic function would ensure we actually *paid* each month. As with other money we send out, we just might forget. Allowing some sort of monthly (or other period of time) withdrawal on an automatic basis is more for Ziroc's sake than ours - as it ensures his cash flow.

BTW, I hope you don't mind that I have a crush on your sig. :D

You beat me to it, Timber. I can't remember to do anything on a regular basis, so <font color=pink>Galadria</font> <l>nags me</l>, er, reminds me on a regular basis. :D $5 a month from one of my credit cards would be no pain, andit would net Ziroc $60 a year.

[ 03-31-2003, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

I don't mind if you have crush on my sig, hun. ;)

it would be sad if IW fell down this is my haven the first forum I ever posted in my LIFE. I wish I can help but I am underage. Just a couple more years and I'd be 18. *sigh*

Still no word from the Z-man. Ziroc, are you in the clear yet man????

What about "sub-renting" space on IW? I'd like to start a forum area, but really don't want to go through everything involved in starting one up. Would this be possible? I'm really into Yu-Gi-Oh and would like to have an area somewhere. I could definitely help you with the costs of the bandwidth if this is acceptable.

I can't be sure if this has already been suggested or not... since I'm at work and was just skimming over the thread instead of reading it very thoroughly... but how about this:

Instead of making the site require a fee just to access it, continue to have it be free, but for free memberships discontinue the pics in the signatures and the fun text effects, if that's possible. Only allow that stuff for paid members, which is optional, of course, and allow paid members all the fun benefits of pics and profiles and somehow make a noticable (sp?) difference between paid and nonpaid members... Still allowing everyone access to the site, but for the people who can afford memberships, allow some perks to encourage more people to sign up. You know, make 'em wanna and make it worth their money, while not doing anything that makes the site more expensive to maintain. Maybe even a newsletter or something.

Like you could have limited # of posts per day for nonpaid members... and their avatars could be good natured jokes that are 'bad' versions of the paid avatars... like gully dwarves and slimes and jellies and crosseyed donkey and midget orc woman with a limp... Nothing insulting, but still... Maybe even disable colored text for nonpaid members. Noticable differences to encourage people to pay and sign up to support the site and get all the perks they took for granted before.

Honestly I'm kinda clueless since this is the only forum I really read... which in itself says something about how good the forum is. But is any of this possible? And is it even a good idea at all?

And I never knew Xen was only 15... he seems much older. *cheers to xen*

[ 03-31-2003, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: 605 ]

<font color=plum>Unfortunately, <font color=white>605</font>, that would create a very noticeable "caste system" and was at the heart of the controversy I mentioned before. You mentioned that didn't know <font color=silver>Xen</font> was only 15 years old. That's because there are NO distinctions made between the members based on their age, social status, or any other demographic. Here at <font color=yellow>Ironworks</font>, EVERYBODY is equal. If we were to only allow "restricted access" to "non-paying members"...that would eliminate the very quality that has made <font color=yellow>Ironworks</font> so successful.

Last year, the suggestion was made to allow "contributing members" to have a special avatar. Just that minor "recognition factor" caused over 5 pages of very heated debate. While I didn't see anything wrong with something that minor (at the time), I've come to realize that those who opposed it are right. <font color=yellow>Ironworks</font> is a true "melting pot" where every single member is just as important as every other member. Our members include young teenagers, college students, married people, single parents, professional artists and at least one member who has a net worth of over 1,000,000. But unless a member chose to divulge which group they belong to, you would never know (I will tell you that I'm NOT the millionaire [img]graemlins/dropatear.gif[/img] ). That's what makes this forum the best one on the internet. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] </font>

[ 03-31-2003, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]

I suggested this back in november: just not this clear

Ironworks membership $1.00 per month

or six month membership $5.00 (thats a free month every 6)

Visitors can look but not post free.

If only 500 people sent in $5.00 every
6 months thats $2,500.00 or 6 months of
Ironworks paid including $1,000.00 left
for Mr.TAX Man.
I,m sure that the kiddies could stick a
dollar bill in an envelope every now and
then to Buy a month worth of posts, heck
they spend more than that on a candy bar.

Ironworks is good clean fun for the old
and the young.
The Kiddies should get Mom and Dad to check
the site out and read the rules here to see
that this is worth the few Bucks every 6 months.

I hope this Idea Helps! It keeps the price down
and that should keep the membership up, with
11,000 members all we need is 5% of them to buy
the 6 month membership and Ziroc will be doing great
as far as the site anyway the car and house payment
may take a few more members.

Not yet. So far we need $200. We got a donation last night that got us $60. We haven't gotten any donations since yesterday.

We have 6 days left till the bills are due. And our property taxes are due soon. I will take the car in for fixing Friday. I just hope it's nothing major. We need a bit more this Month for those reasons, normally, it's less.

We are close! $200 left to go, and we're fine!
Thanks to all that have helped out!!!

<font color=plum>First of all, I would never call you stupid. ;)

Secondly, you are right that we don't need a "formal arrangement" for those wishing to donate. But it WOULD help to know exactly how much <font color=yellow>Ziroc</font> needs on a monthly basis and it would be nice to see a permanent "yardstick" showing us how close we are each month. This could also prevent him from ever having to make another post like this because then ALL the members could see "at a glance" how we were doing each month.

It's obvious that several members are willing to donate on a monthly basis, but as Dan mentioned, only TWO had done so this month (until he Posted this thread - I'm sure that's changed now). With a "yardstick" in place, everybody would have already known that donations were way down this month and could have started contributing earlier. Also, it might be useful for members who want to donate, but can't do it on a regular basis. If they saw we were "falling behind" one month, that might give them a chance to chip in - instead of thinking that it was automatically covered each month.</font>

Ziroc,

Let me be blunt. If you can give a ballpark number of how much it costs to keep the IW site up per month, I (and I'm sure others) will help. Are we talking $260 per month, as your post seems to indicate? Are we talking $500 per month? $1000? Some other number?

Once an idea of the needed goal is known, it's much easier to rally behind it. I'm willing to do my share, but frankly, I haven't (yet) this time, partly because I don't know how much of the load I'd be shouldering. It's not that I'm against helping, because I'm not; I just want more information.

I do sense that making this known might be a bit frustrating or personal. If that's the case, please feel free to email me at my profile address, and ask me to keep it under my hat. I will easily do that.

Please let me know. I'd love to help. Really. In fact, I'll go throw a ten-spot at it as a sign of good faith.

*B*
Minister, etc.

<font color=steelblue> I have to agree Bungleau here. While I have already gave my 20 bucks (wish it could be more, rent and all ;) ) It would be very nice to know the amount we are talking. I like Cereks "yardstick" idea. Kinda like a blood drive thermomitor. Annonomys would be appropriate for those who have donated or wished to. </font>

There is a problem with this - and that is that there plenty of us who cannot afford $1 a month, or whos parents would not allow it.

I don't mind people knowing a few personal details about my life, so here goes. I lost my job back in December last year, and I'm having trouble finding a new one. I am not entitled to benefits or welfare of any kind. I have NO income. $1 is a lot to someone who scrabbles about down the back of their couch trying to find enough small change to go out and buy a carton of milk. At the moment the internet is my lifeline - I would quite simply go insane without it, since I can't afford to go anywhere or do anything. I am in debt up to my eyeballs, and quite frankly life is a bit of a nightmare at the moment. Even when I find work I will probably spend months paying off debts, because friends and family have been good enough to pay my mortgage to stop me becoming homeless.

The internet is pretty much the only thing I can do for free, talk to people, get stuff of my chest. A compulsory subscription would not be possible for me to pay. When you have $1 to spare it's easy to think that it's not much money - but I get excited if I find 5p on the pavement. So please please do not go down the road of compulsory subscriptions! We have members here with good jobs who can maybe afford to donate monthly, but it should be optional. When I get a job, I will donate, but I can't afford it right now :(

(Oh and by the way, in case anyone thinks I've lost the plot cos they remember me talking about buying clothes in Cloudy's Cafe, and thinking I can't be that strapped for cash - the clothes are a birthday prezzie from my mum ;) )

I hate my parents right now, cos they wouldn't let me help.
Kil.....