Good post Wendy [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#6699cc">
We are in agreement possibly for the first time. [img]smile.gif[/img] The space program has been one of the more rewarding government endeavors. I think the tech funding for NASA is way too low. I suppose if man actually ever manages to transplant a population off the earth that would cause some problems for those who follow the Apocrypha and the book of revelations.</font></font>[/QUOTE]I criticised SETI funding amounts, not NASA MagiK.</font>[/QUOTE]Yorick [img]smile.gif[/img] I noticed that, and when I tried to correct my post to take that into account, I lost my net connection ...sorry :(

As far as I can tell though right now SETI is mostly funded via methods that are private or coming from educational institutes who are using it as a science platform and teaching tool. Just as with NASA there are spin off technologies in math and physics and language and communication theory coming out of the SETI program....but ont he other hand I do nothing for or with SETI, Im speaking just from a genearl awareness of the program. I Will have to look into it further. All in all any expenditure to broaden our scientific goals other than on war technologies is a good thing. The one thing War has always been good for is technological advancement.....and killing people :(

Science and religion I don't find to be mutualy exclusive, one is man trying to explain what is important to him, and going on around him from man's point of view. Religion is God explaining what is important to Him, from His point of view. I found that problems arise between the two when man doesn't remember or reconize(sp?) the differance.

This is a good thread. Lots of good posts.
I'd like to add on the morals in science issue, that unfortunately, IMO, science is almosts exclusively driven by morals, not some pure search for absolute knowledge.
The morals? Greed, $Hunger, Power, Competition, and so on.

E.g: The pharmacutical(sp?) companies will often push less effective drug treatments on doctors and patients, in the process falsifying research outcomes to support them. The reason being that they are simply more expensive than more effective ones.
- The people who have attempted to expose this have been threatened by said drug companies.

Most scientific R & D these days is profit and return based. In a Machiavellian way, scientists must play to the dollars in order to keep being scientists.

Isn't it also morals that define ethics? If morals have no place in science, is it ok for a doctor kill a healthy human who matches my specifications if I need an organ?

I think that religion, science, politics, morals, society and hordes of other issues are all inter-related and rely upon each other, historically and currently.

Cerek I wasnt attacking christianity. If you read the post I think you are refering to I also mentiond Jewish and Muslim leaders. It is not the threat of the chrisitan hell I was refering to either. It was the narrowmindedness that is prevalent in ALL religons I was refering to. Simply put almost every religeon says if you dont follow our god and think like us , ie; anti abortion and homosexuality, then you will suffer eternal torment in the afterlife. And before you tell me not your god , read the bible , YES your god says it also.

Yorick: Yes, I am in Montreal, at least for now. Might be moving towards the end of the year, probably to Ottawa. My wife is a nurse from the Philippines and is having trouble finding a job here, as she has almost no French ability and thus hasn't been able to get her licence here.

Actually there is a school of Christian thought that disagrees with you. It says that Christ died for all of us. Our hearts are judged not our actions, yet that choosing to believe is an action; that humans are judged according to what they know (Paul) and also that accepting Christ enables him to take the place of any negative consequence of our actions.

Nothing is really cut and dried. All a Christian knows is where THEY are going, not where anyone else is going. "Do not judge lest you be judged. " It's a scarey thing to try and tell another they are going to hell, assuming hell is an actual place and not a state of nonexistence. ;)

Sorry to hear that mate. :( Hope things work out for you. Take not of this email address hughdwilson@hotmail.com
If ever you're in town, or I am we could grab a coffee. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by Yorick:

Quote:

Nothing is really cut and dried. All a Christian knows is where THEY are going, not where anyone else is going. "Do not judge lest you be judged. " It's a scarey thing to try and tell another they are going to hell, assuming hell is an actual place and not a state of nonexistence. ;)

Is that right... so it is NOT possible for a christian to 'fall'... say, commit an unforgivable sin. Nothing is certain, in a moment of weakness, you *could* do something you may regret `till the end of your days, and maybe beyond... never think for one moment you are completly safe. Sin is always there...

[quote]Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane:

Quote:

Is that right... so it is NOT possible for a christian to 'fall'... say, commit an unforgivable sin. Nothing is certain, in a moment of weakness, you *could* do something you may regret `till the end of your days, and maybe beyond... never think for one moment you are completly safe. Sin is always there...

<font color="#5599cc">The way I understand my religious instructors in the Catholic church, there is no such thing as an unforgivable sin. In the light of Divine grace, a truely repentent person may be forgiven for any transgression. The key here is that only God knows if the person is truly repentent.</font>

<font color="plum">I'm well aware of what my God says in the Bible. While the homosexual lifestyle is dealt with extensively, there is no specific chapter or verse that addresses the issue of abortion per se. That falls under the 6th Commandment (Thou shalt not kill).

These acts are sins. So, does that mean that gays or those who have abortions are condemend to Hell? A lot of Christians would say YES, but I say NO, at least not automatically.

God hates sin...but HE LOVES THE SINNER!!! We are ALL sinners and we ALL fall short of code of conduct He would like us to follow. That includes everybody from the front-row Bible thumper to a killer on Death Row. Some sins are considered more heinous by society, but not by God. In His eyes, no sin is greater or lesser than another.

So if I, as a sinner, can receive free pardon of my sins through God's Holy Grace, there is NO reason that ANYBODY else cannot receive the same pardon.

For your broader question, I realize you were addressing ALL religions as a whole, but I don't know enough about the Muslim or Jewish faith to comment on them.

You are correct that almost every religion - Christianity included - believes they have "the right answer" and that others are wrong. I agree with that - up to a certain point.

That's no different than scientist who have opposing hypothesis regarding the same data. When trying to explain something, different scientists will naturally approach the situation from different perspectives, and will give more weight to different types of data. Does this mean that both are being narrow-minded because they believe their theory is right and the other is wrong? Sometimes yes, but not necessarily.

In the end, they will say "OK, PROVE to me that you are right and I am wrong." The same principle CAN be applied to religion.

God has PROVEN His existence to me on more than one occasion. He has answered prayers in little ways and in grand ways. He has given me comfort when I was emotionally depressed, and He has spared my life when doctors said I wouldn't survive past the next 72 hours.

God has proven His existence to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. So I know that - for me - Christianity is the right religion. However, I don't expect that to be valid proof to anybody else. Each of us must decide for ourselves if we will seek Him or not, and what will prove his existence to us if we do.</font>

<font color="#cc99cc">Good post Cerek. I too have been blessed in that God has chosen to prove his existence to me time and time again. He made it easier for me to accept him. As you said, in small little ways and in some grand and wonderous things he has done for me. For me he made it easy to have faith, for others it seems he has decided to let it be more dificult. I suppose that doesn't sound exactly rational, but faith is not about being rational or logical.

As for who is and is not going to heaven, I think that no matter what the Bible syas about it, that it would be the height of presumption and arrogance for us to make that determination which only God is qualified to make..

Just my 2pennies.

P.S. Would you believe I was picking my color HEX numbers at random and came up with the same exact color as you? what a coincidence [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

[ 06-18-2002, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

If I remember correctly; theres a reference in the bible somewhere that goes something like this... 'may speak out agaisnt the son of man, even the father, but let no one speak out against the holy spirit, for that is unforgivable' it went SOMETHING like that, I know that isnt the corret wording, but thats the gist of it...

Science is not religion, science is trying to work out how. How what you ask, well how everything really.
Religion is the belief that anything and everything is an act of some god or/and that certian path in life will aid us better in the after life.
While both have caused death, one only makes weapons and the other starts wars. One has improved life a given hope and healed the sick, the other gives only hope and rarely heals.
Mind you science has something had something to say about religion, about a few billion years worth HAHAHAHAha!!!!!

Science is not a religion. Never should be and never will be even though people confuse it as such and willfully confuse their religious beliefs with scientific research.

The canonnical example of science as religion seems to be evolution. Before I go any further let me say that I'm not pushing one point of view or the other (evolution or creationism), I'm merely trying to make a small example. In short, this post is not about evolution vs creationism or anything. Just science as religion.

Evolution. Contraversial, unproven, an evolving theory (sorry for the pun.... couldn't resist. :D ). Now, say I became a scientist and me and a hundred other scientists spent years and millions of dollars researching the beginnings of human life and found that lo and behold Humanity was "seeded" here by alien beings. All the stuff that we attributed to evolution was actually carefully planned advancements carryed out by the aliens via microwaves, shot from invisible space ships that orbit Earth (now that I think about it, this scenario sounds like something by Phillip K. Dick). The evidence found is compelling. The proof goes far beyond anything that backs the theory of evolution. What would happen next would be very similar to what occured after Einstein said that Newton was kind of wrong. There would be a period of intense debate, probably a few other experiments would be done to correlate findings and then acceptence of the Alien Plan theory. Not, of course, complete acceptance. There would be a few who hang onto evolution with religious fervour and then there would be those who would go and try to prove the theorem wrong or find a different one.
Religion on the other hand, or I guess I should say Western Religions would respond differently to a similar situation. Each acceptance of difference comes with a great deal of rhetoric about how the church wasn't wrong about whatever it was that they had purported in the first place. The Church's adherence to Aristotilien theory set science back quite a bit. Several hundred years really. When they finally decided that the Copernican view of the Solar System was correct they reneged on all the rhetoric that had been spewed about the Earth being the center of the universe.

Theology is the science of religion. Not scientific religion. Oh semantics how I hate thee. :D

John Huss would be rolling over in his grave if he had one. Have you forgotten the wars of Reformation?

DeSoya

Theology is the science of religion. Not scientific religion. Oh semantics how I hate thee. :D </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=Orange>I think it is scientific religion.</font>

Sure have. Being a protestant I'm very familiar with the atrocities Roman Catholicism inflicted on people like myself.

Even so, the causes were greed, fear, politics and conflicting needs. As ever the cause of war. The religion was irrelevent

Theology is the science of religion. Not scientific religion. Oh semantics how I hate thee. :D </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=Orange>I think it is scientific religion.</font></font>[/QUOTE]I agree. Knowledge is knowledge. How, why, what, who. Religion involves introspective science, and science that deals with the "why", with understanding God (the "who"), and the knowledge to attaining self harmony (the "how"). Biology and archaeology deal with the "what".

<font color=Orange>Well explained Yorick. I would have explained my reasoning myself, but I couldn't think of any words or phrases to use.</font>

Talthyr has a good point, science is an "antonym" of christianity, not EVERY religion. Not every religion believes that a god/goddess created this earth, some belive that it was created by the elements and gasses and such just as science. Has anyone noticed (not offence to christians) that christianity claims that any other belief other than that god created earth is wrong and will get u burned for eternity..i see that ass trying to scare people away from facts and into beliefs...

So is all knowledge religion then? You've made several blanket statements about knowledge. What exactly are you trying to say? I believe that there are different types of knowledge and different aims for acquiring knowledge. I imagine that you can agree with me when I say that just because it something is knowable doesn't mean you or anyone else needs to know it.

Interesting that you should say that Religion involves introspective science. The noted theologin Byron Cox states in his book "The Secularization of Society" that the natural aim of the christian faith is in fact secularization. That science is a secular institution and that Christianity is driven towards secularization speaks volumes about the difference between science and religion.

It seems to me as though you are saying that religion is a science. Am I correct in this?

So Biology and Archeology deal with the What. Is this the What of humanity? As in What are We and What did we come from? What about math and physics? Where do they fit in?

I disagree. The religion placed the need before the people. Certainly greed, fear and politics factored in to the wars of Reformation, but the battles were fought in the name of Religion. The politics were about Religion and the fear was fear of God and the church. Greed fueled the Indulgences but Religion was the cause. If you dissect any war enough you can eventually find whatever it is you are looking for. Heck! If you analyze anything you can find something you're looking for. Huss was burned at the stake for suggesting that the lay people be able to take part in the Eucharist and realize the miracle of Christ's transubstantiation. That seems pretty religiously oriented to me. What did the church have to fear? Certainly the spectre of public drunkeness raised it's ugly head (that strong communion wine) but I'm sure some stronger edict of prohibition could have been issued. Or Huss could have been refused. Burning him seems a little strong to me.
I think that dismisal of all blame from Religion as the cause of strife is a short-sighted claim. Nothing that we (humanity) have ever done is completely good and pure and holy (except maybe Ironworks :D [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). Everything has some sort of wretched part of it. Especially institutions like religion and science.

Sorry about all the questions at the start. I'm really curious. If I come off as a smart aleck it is certainly not my intention so excuse me. I offer up my most humble apolgies in advance.

DeSoya

DeSoya, no offense, but did you read my previous posts before posting yourself? If you had you wouldn't have needed to ask those questions, as they're already answered. ;)

Christianity is a relationship. Theology is a science. (Note the OLOGY after theo. Theos = God)

The dictionary definition I posted earlier INCLUDES the SCIENCE of THEOLOGY in its definition!

Are you guys reading this?

Before entering a debate we must define our terms.

I'll post the definition for science again for those unable to read page 1.

I used Geology and Biology as examples of other sciences, not declaring they were the only sciences... sheesh.

As I have said three or four times, Religions involve science. They use science and at times are science, by using the definition of the word used in the English languages.

If you are going to use the word science in another context then please explain what it is.

Science is not limited to evolution theory.
Science is not limited to chemical experiments.

Science is KNOWLEDGE.
As I posted, biology, geology, astronomy, archaeology, all deal with the "what".
Theology, sociology, psychology deal with the "why" and the "who" and the "how".
Goegraphy, astronomy and cartography deal with the "where"

These are examples of course, not finite definitions.

Thankyou

Hugh

DeSoya, I strongly disagree regarding religion and war. War is an example of the failure of religion. It is worthless looking at people using a cause for their own ends. You have to look at how closely a movement matches the teachings it supposedly follows.

If I called myself a Russian would you believe me? It's pretty naive to presume people to be genuine Buddhists or Christians simply because they pay lip service. By their fruits you shall know them.

Secondly, even the most ardent religious person is HUMAN, and prone to failure and succumbing to the said greed and fear. Again, where conflict involving these passions arise, it is a failure on the individuals part to maintain their chosen path however momentarily that may be.

That is not the religions fault, but the humans.

As I already posted, do we blame scientific discoveries for nuclear warfare, or the humans that misused the knowledge.

Again, this has all been said before. It's a good idea to read over posts before rehashing old arguments. It's the quickest way to getting a thread closed.

IMO

i believe in myself i do not believe there ever was a god nor will there ever be a god. can god die? according to religion no he cant. but according to science all thing have an expected life time. there is no VIRGIN mary just some women if any that didnt want daddy to know she was messin with one of the sheep herders. science has proven that people can not have an emaculate conception. only asexually animals such as some frogs have the ability to birth on their own. and thats because it is proven that they have both sex organs.(now hypothetically per say if miss mary did have a asexually child, her and the baby would have been burned as witches for herecy and the ability to produce babies unnaturally). back then mentality speaking there.

religion i feel is what brings disorder and chaos to this world. its seperates people on beliefs and biases. people do not have faith in themselves. they put faith and belief above themselves. does a man catch a football and bring it into the endzone because god helped him or willed him? no. he has his own individual talents he fails to see himself.

and if it werent for religion most if not all wars in the world would have never happened or occured. men have this sense that since we have the inept ability to understand and to learn more than the common animal does that makes us better. we were choosen for a higher purpose. god must have choose us to preach his name.

it takes a few intelligent people to show the rest of the "dumb" world that they are wrong. and time and time again these smart people have proven the disproved. the world is not FLAT the sun or shining ball in the sky doesnt circle us but we circle it. electricity and or lightning isnt the hand of "god" smitting man for being sinnful but charged electrons and magnetism. the ground doesnt shake because god is mad at fellow man but because of shifting in techtonic plates.

we are animals. we dont like to think of ourselves as animals cause we use more of our brain and our ability to think is enhanced.women bitch at men that men are dogs. well i am proud to say like every other male ANIMAL out there that it is our male instincts that drive us to sleep arround or in animallistic sence breed. it is a law of nature that male animals spread their seed not for fun but for the assurance of the survival of their species. we just somehow make fun of it.

do you think if there was a god he would have willed man to be as destructive as he is?

i know not all religions beleive in a god per say but a man of great influence. hell allah has successfully got an entire race of people to believe that eating pork is dirty cause a pig eats its own sh*t. they also believe that if they die for a good cause they get to goto paradise and are blessed with 70 virgins. hell maybe the families of those victims of the twin towers attacks will feel better knowing that the men that hijacked those planes went to a better place cause allah willed it.

hell i find it funny that the world still holds a grudge against the jews. because they were the ones that according to history killed jesus christ. now did every jewish man and women kill jesus christ. or did one man of certain religious pretext kill jesus. how would the world respond if jesus was not killed by jewish descent rather christian.not possible right? why would we kill our own kindred? yet we do it constantly in the streets of our cities.

goto prison and ask every cellmate if they believe in god. if they do why would they commit crimes against humanity like that if they are in touch with religion like that. people who do not beleive there is a god and or higher person believe in their self respecting abilities and see people for what they are. ask those same people in prison and you will find almost not one of them does not believe in god.

a person who doesnt believe in god has a better sense of what is right and what is wrong. they arent as hell bent and destructive and someone who does believe in god.in the end it wont be the people who dont believe in god that brings this world down but the very people who do believe in god that will destroy this earth.

thats why i would pick science over religion science can prove it. religion you have to believe in it. and i already believe in myself and my abilities to live out my life as the days go by.

one last thing to note.did you pick your religion or did your parents bring you into it ? if so say if you were catholic, would your parents get upset if you converted to jewdism or buddist? why or why not?

Fascinating debate. Here is a detailed discussion of war and conflict as portrayed in the Bible. Makes for interesting reading ;)

[quote]Originally posted by Calaethis Dragonsbane:

Quote:

Is that right... so it is NOT possible for a christian to 'fall'... say, commit an unforgivable sin. Nothing is certain, in a moment of weakness, you *could* do something you may regret `till the end of your days, and maybe beyond... never think for one moment you are completly safe. Sin is always there...

Calaethis, this is not how I believe it works. It is about the heart. Love, repentance, commitment and intent.
If a person has become a Christian, then a last sin before they die, without a chance to 'say sorry' does not condem them to hell. Nor does it allow them a life of 'do as you please' because they know no matter what, they're going to heaven. If they believe this, they haven't truely repented.
Repentance is a wholistic choice - you don't just repent for individual sins but for all your sins. Commitment to Christ is a lifetime commitment (yes some can and do reneg though). Those who have honestly repented through Jesus Christ, love God, and live their lives trying to follow the teachings of Christ and desiring forgiveness, will not IMO be punished for eternity for screwing it up sometimes. (or a lot)

er I think you misunderstood me... ah well never mind. I totally agree with you on what you just said. Im not a catholic... never that. not that I have anyhting agaisnt them.

how so?

does it truly matter? just let it go, ok? im not really in the mood for a religious debate right now.

No worries. ;)

No worries. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]good :D . I'd be happy to have a debate some other time... just not right now. lol; save it for a rainy day, eh?

<font color="plum">Aaaah.....but God transcends the laws of physical science. After all, He created this world and everything in it, including the laws of "science" that these creations conform to. Therefore, He is above the laws of science.</font>

<font color="plum">So you believe that - if there were NO religion or belief in a higher being or power - then there would be no chaos or disorder? That, if left to his own devices, man would instinctively get along with his neighbor and they would both automatically work for the betterment of each other?

AFA the football player, where does his talent derive from? He can control and improve SOME aspects of his talent - but not all. There are many talented quarterbacks in the game, but few have ever had the natural talent and savvy of Joe Montana. I don't think any other QB can match Joe's record for last-drive comeback wins.
In the NBA, we now have Kobe Bryant and Shaq. There are many players who have worked as hard - if not harder - to hone their abilities, but Shaq and Kobe are literally heads above the rest of the league in pure physical talent. Again, where does that exceptional physical skill come from? They are born with it. Therefore, it is reasonable for them to give credit to their Creator for their physical gifts.</font>

<font color="plum">Please be wary of broad generalizations.

World War I - Started by the assassination of a French diplomat/ambassodor. (I think he was French anyway - but may be wrong).

World War II - Started by Hitler's obssession to return Germany to the status of a World Power. The "religious genocide" of the Jews didn't occur until Germany had already invaded Poland, Austria, and other surrounding countries. It was the most heinous aspect of WWII, but not the cause of it.

Korea and Vietnam - Started by communist gov'ts that controlled the northern part of those countries in an attempt to overthrow their democratic counterparts in the southern section.

American Civil War - began when Confederate soldiers finally fired upon northern ships that had been sent by Abraham Lincoln to prevent southern states from seceding from the union (which they had a Constitutional right to do, BTW....that's right, Lincoln actually violated the Constitution by preventing the South from seceding). The slavery issue wasn't even brought up until close to the wars end when support in the North was beginning to wane.</font>

<font color="plum">I appreciate your effort, but so far, you have failed to convince me of my ignorance.</font>

<font color="plum">An excellent point. You are absolutely correct. God gave Man free will and it is Man's will (not God's) that has caused so much destruction.</font>

<font color="plum">Sorry, <font color="orange">thiefprowess</font>, but this is a completely erroneous statement. It has been scientifically proven that serial killers have no moral concept of right and wrong. They feel NO REMORSE whatsoever for the pain and suffering they inflict on their victims and thier families. They see nothing wrong with their actions, because they are adhering to their own, personal code of conduct.

You apparantly have a strong dislike for religious beliefs and people of faith. Very well...that is your choice and I respect that.

All I ask is that you treat my views with the same respect.</font>


<font color="plum">That's a fair question. I WAS raised in a Christian home (Baptist to be specific). I've attended Baptist, Methodist, and Pentacostal churches in my search for faith.

I would never convert to the Jewish or Buddhist faith because I disagree with some important core beliefs. I have conducted my own search for God and He has revealed Himself to me in a convincing manner. Therefore, there is no reason for me to consider a different theology.

Yes, my parents would be greatly saddened if I DID choose to convert to a non-Christian religion. That is because they believe, like I do, that God is our Heavenly Father and that Jesus Christ is His son - who died on the cross so that MY sins might be forgiven. By converting to another religion, I would be rejecting that Holy Gift. They wouldn't stop me from doing it, but they would be upset by my choice.</font>

The Bible says the world is round. Scientists and mariners of the day said the world was flat.

Your statement about most of the wars never happening is ure speculation. You provide no facts to suport such a generalised statement.

I have detailed before the number of Singaporean Buddhists I witnessed convert to Christianity in one night, (1756) and that Children are beaten and kicked out of home when they leave Buddhism for Christ. This was verified by Lifetime, a Singaporean here.

Also, who holds prejudice against Jews? I don't know any Christians that do. Jesus was a Jew. The early church consisted almost entirely of Jews. I have Messianic Jewish friends in my church. I work for Jews. I have been mistaken for a Jew here in New York.

"In Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile"

Don't know where you're getting your information.

Regarding the twin towers everyone seems to use that to justify their own agenda. Those who want to criticise America use it as proof that America caused the attack. Now here you are citing religion is the cause. Well which is it?

There are seven million Muslims in the United Staes. Are they all attacking Churches and Synagogues? Is Indonesia, the largest Islamic nation attacking Australia, a sport deifying nation for glorifying human achievement? You are talking about minoritys. Wahabism, the strand the highjackers followed is an extremist interpretation of Islam.

But why am I defending Islam? Islam is totally different to Christianity. How can you lump opposite beliefs into the one basket?

Do we do this with political ideologies?

Oh yes, the Democrats and the Nazis are both responsible for World War II. Heck, both the Capitalists and Greenies are responsible for the degradation of the planet. And the Monarchist English and Republican Americans are both responsible for the revolution.

Or are they?

So regarding wars, was the Falklands based on religion? Was Genghis Khan a religious evangelist? Did the English want to incite the boxer rebellion in China because they loved Christ? Did Hussein invade Kuwait because Allah told him to? Did the Lombards invde Italy because they wanted to get a good view of the Vatican? Did Spain invade South America to convert everyone or to GET THE SILVER THERE.
.

Respectfully, Yorick, I did read the previous posts. I was asking for clarification. What I wanted to know is where do math and physics fit into your scheme? It matters not. I'll concede the point that my statements about Theology were a bit misplaced. They didn't come out how I wanted them to. Such are the vagaries of my sieve-like short term memory. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If we follow the dictionary definitions we get the following comparison:

re·li·gion
n.

1.
a.Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b.A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2.The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3.A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4.A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

sci·ence
n.

1.
a.The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of
phenomena.
b.Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
c.Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
2.Methodological activity, discipline, or study: "I've got packing a suitcase down to a science."
3.An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4.Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
5.Science Christian Science.

Both these came off of Dictionary.com and so are from the American Heiritage Dictionary. From reading both of these carefully I see how Religion could be practiced in a science like manner but still fail to see how Science is a religion except perhaps in an extreme sense of the fourth definition of religion. There is no place for such things as: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe." God cannot be axiomated and so cannot be hypothesised or theorized. That's part of the mystery of God (to me at least). And inasmuch a creator or what not should be ignored when doing science lest it cloud the judgement of the scientist. There have been many theories that were wrong that have been persued over the years because people's ambitions or beliefs clouded their judgment. I was poking around on the web looking for a famous math proof that supposedly showed the existance of God. Couldn't find it so my poor explanation will have to do. The man's proof was that only God could create something out of nothing and presented a series of squences that summed a bunch of zeros (1 + (-1)). Unfortunetly his logic was incorrect. He couldn't see this because he was looking for proof of God. Isn't faith enough?

I'll wrap this up by reiterating that Science is not Religion and should never be. There are those of us who seemingly worship technology, the unholy bastard offspring of war and science research, and there are those who eschew the holy and the divine in favor facts and theorems but the practice of science should remain inviolate.

As for the subject of war and religion. I respectfully withdraw myself from this discussion. I am afraid that I might go to the point of being disrespectful and rude and that's not the way I would ever want to be online. If ever I deserve to be punched because of my words I want to be punched. :D

DeSoya

In WWI it was a Austrian/Hungarian duke of Hapsburg descent. WWII resulted from WWI.

Apparently Hitler wasn't too far out of line with his actions according to the rest of Europe. A joke goes something like this: Had you told anyone in Europe in 1910 that in 30 years 6 million Jews would be systematically prosecuted and killed the answer would be "Well... Anything can happen in France."

Good points for the most part tho', Cerek. Just thought I'd correct the origin of the Duke guy. [img]smile.gif[/img]

DeSoya

maybe Im being thick, but I simly dont see the humor. its *not* funny.

well, science does not appreciate the mysteries of human lives. what it concerns is numbers and formulers. the exact amount of carbont react with equal its amount of oxygen will result that much CO2 (dont bother to correct me on the word choices. I assure you I learnt your college chemistry shit at 9th grade). but anyways, religion teachs a way of life, it is not just a subject to be studied or taught. religion does not question the truth of unknown, instead religion includes that as mystery, as it is a inevitable experience of our existence.

defy that mystery, you lose the spiritual life, which is a soul's essential need. thats the difference between religion and science, as I see it.

Numbers and formulers is Phyics and such only one arm of science. Science does appreciate the mysteries of life but choose to seek an explaintion. Religion is matter to be taught for without it teaching all regilion will die. It also tries to explain mysterys but does so too often by ruling them acts of god then seeking real answers.

isnt physics science?

Numbers and formulers is Phyics and such only one arm of science. Science does appreciate the mysteries of life but choose to seek an explaintion. Religion is matter to be taught for without it teaching all regilion will die. It also tries to explain mysterys but does so too often by ruling them acts of god then seeking real answers.</font>[/QUOTE]But Gabriel there are Christian scientists. I was a Christian studying Sociology before I was a musician. Believing there is someone behind everything, doesn't meant you don't want to know how it's done.

I for one am fascinated by discoveries of sulfur eating beings at the bottom of the ocean (living near cracks in the ocean floor). There are Christians who believe in evolution as well. They just believe God directed it.

As I have said again and again, Science and religion are not mutually exclusive.

Has anyone considered these words?

Conscience
Omniscience
Prescience

Note the word constructions? ;)