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-   -   Massive Riots in France (http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78804)

johnny 11-06-2005 09:23 AM

Quote:

Arrest them. Try them. Lock them up. I know its difficult, but killing them (as so many have suggested) makes them martyrs to their cause. Deal with them in a fair way that doesn't create more tension, you're trying to calm the situation, not fan the flames. We all know how well the eye for a eye philosophy works down in Israel. Or...
They are making hundreds of arrests every single night, by now there must be more than a thousand rioters behind bars. And instead of calming down, the situation gets out of hand more and more. I bet France doesn't have enough prisoncells to keep em all in check.

Quote:

...seems a very fair suggestion. However, it wouldn't work for those who's country of origin is france. Many of these people are the children or grandchildren of immigrants, you can't send them to a country their family hasn't lived in for a generation, nor would that country accept france dumping their criminals on them.
Like i said, they all have double nationalities, which means that their country of origin cannot refuse to take them in. If France wants to eject a few hundred Algerians, who all have both French and Algerian passports, they can simply send them back to Algeria, even when they are born in France. It's simple, if you don't behave to normal French standards, you don't deserve to live in France, and you have to go. I don't see anything wrong in reasoning like that.

[ 11-06-2005, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: johnny ]

johnny 11-06-2005 09:43 AM

It's going to affect the entire economy if they don't act now. Killing people should be the last straw, but using rubber bullets would be a good start. They'll live, but they'll be in a lot of pain for weeks to come. They simply can't let this go on any further, the French government is making a mockery of themselves if they let these riots continue.

Sir Degrader 11-06-2005 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Melcheor:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by johnny:
[qb]Then tell me, how would you reason with a horde of people who are torching everything in their path ? Tap em on the shoulder and ask them nicely if they would pretty please stop their assaults ?

Arrest them. Try them. Lock them up. /QB]</font>[/QUOTE]And what, have this type of militant disaffection run through the jails, infecting all it comes into contact with? No, this problem has gone on long enough. Excise the cancer and the body will be whole. Then again, this is very easy to say, sitting at a computer desk a few thousand miles away.

[ 11-06-2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Sir Degrader ]

johnny 11-06-2005 10:06 AM

Quote:

And what, have this type of islam run through the jails, infecting all it comes into contact with?
Erm...don't you think you've seen one Hollywood movie too many ?

Sir Degrader 11-06-2005 01:48 PM

No, just reading about the spread of Militant Islam in US jails has made me a bit nervous about sending large numbers of one particular group to jails.

Stratos 11-06-2005 01:59 PM

But then, at least, we know where we have them. ;)

Sir Degrader 11-06-2005 02:02 PM

Until they get released, and live their lives as perfect neighbors until something like what's happening in France happens.

Stratos 11-06-2005 02:05 PM

Eh? The rioters in France are from the slums. They're marginalized people and not the "perfect neighbours"-type.

johnny 11-06-2005 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Degrader:
No, just reading about the spread of Militant Islam in US jails has made me a bit nervous about sending large numbers of one particular group to jails.
Those are not militant Islamists, that's the Nation of Islam, a gathering of former pimps, pushers, and gangbangers, who all turn to Islam because they don't have anything better to do anyway. It gives them a feeling of belonging to a family again, just like they had in da hood.

They also have a considerable lack of working braincells.

Melcheor 11-07-2005 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny:
Like i said, they all have double nationalities, which means that their country of origin cannot refuse to take them in. If France wants to eject a few hundred Algerians, who all have both French and Algerian passports, they can simply send them back to Algeria, even when they are born in France. It's simple, if you don't behave to normal French standards, you don't deserve to live in France, and you have to go. I don't see anything wrong in reasoning like that.
But do they have two passports? Just because you were born in a country different to that of your parents doesn't mean you are automatically granted dual nationality. The deal is slightly different for each country. I have a british mum and an american dad. I was born in Britain so that's the passport I automatically got. I would have had to go hrough a long and arduous process in order to get dual nationality. We're talking about having to hire solicitors to decipher the forms the american embasy sent me, and flying my dad over from the states as it was a requiremnt that both parents be present. In the end we didn't have the money, and since dual nationality must be claimed by the time you are 18, I will never now have citizenship in the countries I am entitled too. There were legal problems too, such as in wartime someone with dual nationality could technically be called up by both countries and then imprisoned by whoever they did not fight for. Needless to say, in the current climate with america's foreign policy I was not thrilled at this prospect.

Anyway, I'm not sure a lot of these rioters will have anything other than a french passport. The police over here sure as hell couldn't send me 'back' to america if I'd been causing them some trouble.

Melcheor 11-07-2005 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny:
Like i said, they all have double nationalities, which means that their country of origin cannot refuse to take them in. If France wants to eject a few hundred Algerians, who all have both French and Algerian passports, they can simply send them back to Algeria, even when they are born in France. It's simple, if you don't behave to normal French standards, you don't deserve to live in France, and you have to go. I don't see anything wrong in reasoning like that.
Beisides, if they really do have dual nationality, what's stopping algeria doing the same? Technically (according to the above argument) france can't refuse either.

Dreamer128 11-07-2005 07:03 AM

French riots still escalating

The violence in France continues to escalate. More than 30 police officers were injured last night, two of them seriously, and 1,400 cars were set on fire. Public buildings were burned down in a number of French cities and, for the first time, the rioters fired at police with shotguns. A police trade union is calling it "civil war" and has appealed to the government to send in the army. It also wants a curfew in the city suburbs.

A number of leading Muslim clerics in France have appealed for calm. Many of the rioters are second and third-generation youths of North African origin.

The president of the employers' association Medef, Laurence Parisot, has warned that the rioting will have serious effects on the French economy. She says the restoration of law and order should be the government's first priority.

A number of countries, including Great Britain, the United States and Australia, are warning travellers to be particularly careful in France. So far no tourists have been directly involved in the riots, which are largely confined to the poorer suburbs of French cities.

(rnw.nl)

shamrock_uk 11-07-2005 03:37 PM

A nice little article by John Simpson. Reader comments found at the bottom of the page.

Quote:

Violence exposes France's weaknesses
By John Simpson
BBC World Affairs Editor


Last spring, over dinner in Paris, a close friend of mine who runs one of the biggest opera houses outside the French capital told me: "I've got this persistent feeling that 1968 is just about to happen all over again."

He had no idea that the violence would erupt in the dreary, featureless suburbs.

He thought it was because the French political system had run out of ideas and credibility, and he knew the French.

These moments of weakness are the times when trouble always seems to break out.

Moment of weakness?

If President Jacques Chirac and the centre-right government which supports him had been in full control of France's political life, it is hard to think these long days and nights of continuous rioting would have taken place.

The feelings of resentment and simmering anger in the suburbs would have been just as strong, but the crowds would mostly have held back.

Years of reporting on riots and revolutions have shown me that crowds display a mysterious collective sense which somehow overrides the perceptions and fears of the individuals who make up the mass. And crowds have a remarkable feeling for the weakness of government.

There is of course a huge well of fury and resentment among the children of North African and African immigrants in the suburbs of French cities. The suburbs have been woefully ignored for 30 years.

Violence there is regular and unexceptionable. Even on a normal weekend, between 20 and 30 vehicles are regularly attacked and burned by rioters.

Power decline

This time the riots are joined up, pre-planned, co-ordinated. At some level of consciousness, the demonstrators know that the governmental system they are facing is deeply, perhaps incurably, sclerotic.

Mr Chirac, standing back until his ministers showed their inability to agree a clear line on the rioting, seems not to have the answers when he speaks now. His presidency is overshadowed by an inescapable sense of past corruption and weakness, and he has governed France at a time when its economy and its position in the world have both declined sharply and markedly.

No matter that events have thoroughly borne out his criticisms of the US and British invasion of Iraq in 2003. The Muslim teenagers who briefly applauded him then have long since forgotten all that - though of course if he had supported President George W Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair then, he would be in even greater trouble now.

In 1968, too, President Charles de Gaulle and his ministers spoke sternly of the need for order to be restored immediately, and yet they did nothing.

If the riot police could have restored order they would have done so, but they were overstretched and outwitted, and their only response was more of the kind of violence which made the crowds even more ferocious in their turn.

Anti-French tone

I remember the 1968 riots very well. But of course the differences between then and now were as great as the similarities. For a start, the riots of 2005 are still all about the bitter and genuine grievances of the Muslim and African communities, ignored and demeaned and kept in poverty by a system which cares very little about them.

Only if a much wider swathe of French society gets involved on their side will the situation become truly pre-revolutionary, in the way that the crowds of 1968 were.

And since the riots have taken on a fiercely anti-French tone, and the violence and destruction have sickened so many people in the suburbs themselves, that seems unlikely at present.

France, though, tends to move forward in fits and starts, rather than organically, and these fits and starts are often associated with violence.

Spirit of revolution

Thanks to the Revolution, violence even has a kind of virtue which it simply does not possess in a country like Britain. When government becomes incapable of change, the crowds in the streets have to do the changing for themselves.

There is a great deal that has to be changed. I have seen many times for myself how the CRS, the deeply aggressive and ferocious force of riot police, have attacked Muslims and Africans in the streets in times of trouble.

Last April, Amnesty International singled out the violence and racism of the French police towards the non-white people of the suburbs for particular criticism.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the Interior Minister, now seems to be playing politics with the situation by appealing to the most basic and resentful attitudes of conservative France.

Much of the violence on the streets of France's cities is mindless; some of it is malign. But simply stamping it down will not work - and anyway the CRS and the civil police have tried that, and their toughness has only made things worse.

France is going to have to change towards its unwilling, often unwelcome young second-generation population, and accommodate them better.

It is not enough to demand that these people drop their sense of themselves and fit in with the way France has traditionally ordered its affairs.

But most of all there has to be change in attitudes at the top. And if Mr Chirac cannot do it, he will be fatally damaged as president.

Sir Degrader 11-07-2005 08:00 PM

Bah, update, someone has just been killed. Chirac thinks curfews will help. Bah. Send in the army, and stop these riots by any means nessesary. As long as they don't succumb to political pressure as they did in the Algeria war, the French Military should be able to simply let loose a storm upon the rebels.

Stratos 11-08-2005 07:43 AM

They're not really rebels, just a mob of angry teenage rioters. And sending in your armed forces against your own population is an extreme measure, and should only be reserved for extreme situations. I would call the current situation an "extreme situation", not yet.

Timber Loftis 11-08-2005 09:55 AM

Really? How many dead before you call it extreme? I know if it was over here in "the land of the free" the national guard would have rolled in a day or two ago.

Luvian 11-08-2005 10:23 AM

They don't have to order the army to shoot on sight, just have them take up a defensive perimeters around them and push them back/disperse them.

That's how we delt with the native americans who took up arms and tried to defend their area when the city in question wanted to raze part of it to add an extention to the local golf course a couple of years ago. After a couple of days they gave up and we got a new golf course. :(

Timber Loftis 11-08-2005 11:33 AM

And Rage Against the Machine got a new hit song. :D

johnny 11-08-2005 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stratos:
They're not really rebels, just a mob of angry teenage rioters. And sending in your armed forces against your own population is an extreme measure, and should only be reserved for extreme situations. I would call the current situation an "extreme situation", not yet.
The only thing that could make this even worse is when people start dying in the streets, and i believe there already is one victim, an old man who was trying to put out a fire got molested by these "angry young teenagers".

It's time they grab the bull by the horn and end this crap, by all means necessary, if that means some of the terrorists, because that's what they are, have to die, then so be it. France is giving a poor example of how to act in crisis situations here. I bet if this was happening in Algeria, it would have been over days ago. I also think, that if this was an angry mob of raging neo nazis, or a horde of footballhooligans, they would have acted a lot more convincingly.

Timber Loftis 11-08-2005 02:25 PM

Terrorist.
Revolutionary.
Freedom Fighter.
Patriot.
Oppressed.
Liberator.

It's all about point of view, isn't it?

johnny 11-08-2005 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
Terrorist.
Revolutionary.
Freedom Fighter.
Patriot.
Oppressed.
Liberator.

It's all about point of view, isn't it?

Whatever, they're thrashing the place, they need an asswhooping.

Stratos 11-08-2005 03:38 PM

What is the army gonna do that the police can't? Start gunning people down? We're talking about a bunch of teenage punks here.

Sir Degrader 11-08-2005 04:08 PM

Teenage punks my ass, these are the next generation of Mohammed Atta's, we have to get rid of them before they get rid of us.

Ziroc 11-08-2005 04:12 PM

10-4. I'm wondering if France is going to ask for help?

johnny 11-08-2005 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stratos:
What is the army gonna do that the police can't? Start gunning people down? We're talking about a bunch of teenage punks here.
I just saw an interview with one of the mobsters on CNN, who also appears to be a rapper from a group that calls themselves "the new African Poets", he said that young AND old are standing together in this. It's not a band of kids on a rampage, it's a complete uprising. I've seen footage of others involved as well, and they were no kids either, they were all guys between the ages of 25 and 35. Last time i checked people of that age are accounted for as adults. You are still underestimating the danger of this situation.

shamrock_uk 11-08-2005 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny:
I bet if this was happening in Algeria, it would have been over days ago.
Hasn't Algeria been in a state of perpetual riot for the last decade or so?

Who would they get help from? And what could another country do that France couldn't if they put their mind to it?

The risk about sending the army in is that they just act as a focul point for the violence - tanks and APC's become a target for molotov cocktails for example. A tank getting stuff thrown at it from a mob simply looks impotent. If the army aren't actually allowed to use overwhelming lethal force (and it's unlikely they would be) then I'm not convinced it would contribute much to the current situation.

[ 11-08-2005, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

johnny 11-08-2005 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shamrock_uk:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by johnny:
I bet if this was happening in Algeria, it would have been over days ago.

Hasn't Algeria been in a state of perpetual riot for the last decade or so? </font>[/QUOTE]They have trouble with a group of fundamentalists who call themselves FIS, that's different than a stampeding horde within the citylimits. They strike and dissapear to their hideouts before the authorities arrive. Different situation.

http://www.iss.co.za/PUBS/MONOGRAPHS/No74/Chap6.html

johnny 11-08-2005 04:41 PM

Quote:

The risk about sending the army in is that they just act as a focul point for the violence - tanks and APC's become a target for molotov cocktails for example. A tank getting stuff thrown at it from a mob simply looks impotent. If the army aren't actually allowed to use lethal force (and it's unlikely they would be) then I'm not convinced it would contribute much to the current situation.
Who says anything about tanks, haven't they learned anything from Los Angeles 1992 ? The answers are right there

Here


On April 29, 1992, twelve jurors in Sylmar, California rendered their verdicts in a controversial case involving the 1991 beating of Rodney King by four LAPD officers. The case had received heavy media coverage dating from before it even went to trial, when a video of the beating hit the national airwaves. It came as a surprise then, as the verdicts were read: One of the officers was found guilty of excessive force; the other officers were cleared of all charges.
The verdicts were broadcast live, and word spread quickly throughout Los Angeles. At various points throughout the city that afternoon, people began rioting. For the next three days the violence and mayhem continued. Mayor Tom Bradley imposed a curfew, schools and businesses were closed. Governor Pete Wilson dispatched 4,000 National Guard troops to patrol the streets. People stayed home, watching on TV with the rest of the country as live TV coverage showed fires raging throughout the city, innocent bystanders being assaulted and looters sacking businesses.

On Monday, May 4, schools and businesses reopened and life returned to some semblance of normality. The toll from the worst civil unrest LA had experienced since 1965 was devastating: more than 50 killed, over 4 thousand injured, 12,000 people arrested, and $1 billion in property damage.

Sir Degrader 11-08-2005 05:12 PM

If this happened in Algeria, you can bet your ass that France would fight, kinda like this . Seriously though, this is an absolute disgrace. Us civilized folk must make a stand. Bugger these primitives, destroy them and rebuild.

Sir Degrader 11-08-2005 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shamrock_uk:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by johnny:
[qb]I bet if this was happening in Algeria, it would have been over days ago.

The risk about sending the army in is that they just act as a focul point for the violence - tanks and APC's become a target for molotov cocktails for example. A tank getting stuff thrown at it from a mob simply looks impotent. If the army aren't actually allowed to use overwhelming lethal force (and it's unlikely they would be) /QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Tanks and APC's aren't needed IMO. What is needed is fellows like the Scorpions. Timely and limited use of them can terrify the populace into stopping. If they keep it up, then simply use them as firefighters. Horrific yes, but well needed. This has gone on long enough.

shamrock_uk 11-08-2005 05:41 PM

Oh, I wasn't particularly referring to the FIS, I got the impression that there was more random unrest. Not to mention that rascal Gbagbo.

Incidentally, if I remember my history correctly, wasn't the FIS a classic example of political opression radicalising a popular Islamic party that had taken part in the democratic process?

johnny 11-08-2005 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shamrock_uk:
Oh, I wasn't particularly referring to the FIS, I got the impression that there was more random unrest. Not to mention that rascal Gbagbo.

Incidentally, if I remember my history correctly, wasn't the FIS a classic example of political opression radicalising a popular Islamic party that had taken part in the democratic process?

I guess that info is all in the link i included. I hope you forgive me, but Algerian internal affairs are not my specialty. :D

shamrock_uk 11-08-2005 06:00 PM

Heh, I doubt it is for many people at all! I was just trying to draw a parallel to the current situation really - in other words France does deserve to shoulder a proportion of the blame IMO - blaming it all on Islam is not the whole answer.

Sir D - I've had problems turning up anything on Scorpions apart from the stinging variety! Are they some sort of riot police?

[ 11-08-2005, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Sir Degrader 11-08-2005 06:04 PM

The Balkan variety.

Lucern 11-08-2005 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morgeruat:

I remember asking during the riots that followed the Rodney King trial why the rioters destroyed and looted their own neighborhoods, they weren't harming those they thought were oppressing them, they were only making their own bad neighborhoods worse, I've been asking myself the same questions for the last 9 days.

If we're looking at LA in 1992 as a reference, it should be pointed out that this is missing something important, and Johnny's link doesn't add anything about it either. 'It', of course, is that it was Korean business owners who took the brunt of that riot, even being hit when hispanic and white-owned businesses next door were left alone. All three were terrorized, and certainly were among those murdered, but that Koreans took the brunt is apparently little known. In the immediate area of their neighborhoods, those business owners were seen as individually oppressing. Rioters were harming those they saw as oppressing them, and they murdered and injured many. Riots have causes and rioters have motives. France would do well to figure out what those are as soon as possible, you know, after the fires stop.

This, being from the Christian Science Monitor, is a bit sappy, but looks at it from a black and Korean perspective: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0429/p01s07-ussc.html
It also has a timeline that shows LA has a few more race riots under its belt.

This is about LA Koreans specifically: http://www.asiasource.org/news/at_mp...m?newsid=79441

This isn't great on 'why' questions, but good on 'how' questions. It also links to some accounts of military strategies. It should be noted that most guardsmen had no training at all in riot control, and were trained right then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

Stratos 11-09-2005 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Stratos:
What is the army gonna do that the police can't? Start gunning people down? We're talking about a bunch of teenage punks here.

I just saw an interview with one of the mobsters on CNN, who also appears to be a rapper from a group that calls themselves "the new African Poets", he said that young AND old are standing together in this. It's not a band of kids on a rampage, it's a complete uprising. I've seen footage of others involved as well, and they were no kids either, they were all guys between the ages of 25 and 35. Last time i checked people of that age are accounted for as adults. You are still underestimating the danger of this situation. </font>[/QUOTE]I would call 25 year olds quite young, not teenagers granted, but still you enough to riot with them. I don't know the average age of these rioters, but I've only seen pictures and clips of teenagers. Perhaps there are older adults among them as well, but I doubt there are many 40+ year olds there, despite what some rapper said. But I could be wrong, of course.

I don't think I undersetimate the situation either; I'm just not willing to rattle my sabres quite yet. I AM in favour of the curfew, though. That should seperate the rioters from those smart enough to stay inside.

Link 11-09-2005 09:36 AM

I don't think this is getting out of hand just yet. After 9/11 everyone started screaming it was World War III as well, and look what happened?!

Melcheor 11-09-2005 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Degrader:
The Balkan variety.
Oh, right, I was thinking of the german rock band variety. Truly terrifying...

Melcheor 11-09-2005 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sir Degrader:
Tanks and APC's aren't needed IMO. What is needed is fellows like the Scorpions. Timely and limited use of them can terrify the populace into stopping. If they keep it up, then simply use them as firefighters. Horrific yes, but well needed. This has gone on long enough.
What? You need "timely and limeted use" of rape, torture, murder and ethnic clensing to calm the situation? I really don't know where you get your ideas...

[ 11-09-2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Melcheor ]

Sir Degrader 11-09-2005 06:15 PM

Worked in french Algeria. BTW, the situation is apparently calming down
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4422422.stm


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