That's right - the Dutch re-elected 'Harry Potter' once more - unfortunately you are right: he doesn't possess the magic qualities of leadership.

For those of you who don't know why the Dutch press call Jan Peter Balkenende 'Harry Potter' have a look at his picture below left - compared with the real Harry Potter (right):
http://home.planet.nl/~elder180/imag...02verschil.jpg

[ 01-25-2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

I saw a German poll that said over 55% of Germans would be against the war even if the UN does authorize it.

Well, if polls show that only a small portion of our population is actually supporting the Iraqi War (similar to what Ronn_Bmann is talking about), I'd say our Government is not taking the side they should take in this matter. Most people are completely against one or only supporting one if the UN thinks it's necessary.
And a Government with CDA and PVDA is a lot more to the left than a Government with CDA, VVD and LPF; which is what I was referring to. I didn't say it's left-winged (Pvda is hardly left anymore nowadays), I said it's more to the left. Giving me at least *some* hope. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And walking away from their responsibilities? What responsibilities? But on the other hand, we've been over this matter many times, johnny, and agreeing on anything Iraq/asylum seekers/muslim-related with you has been proven to be completely impossible. So I'll just get off your back now, for peace's sake. ;)
*hands johnny a can of beer*

[ 01-25-2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

*off topic*

*drinks beer* You sure know how to drive a hard bargain. :D

Just for curiosity, in America, I think I'm considered to be "on the right" politically, so would I be considered "on the Left" in Europe? :D

We're not THAT different, what's right is right.

Not too sure... I think the two systems are almost uncomparable, really. But mostly, both the Democrats and the Republicans are pretty much middle-of-the-political-spectrum-parties, with the Democrats inclining towards the European left and the Republicans to the right. I think the two party system actually makes the US a little more conservative as well (as more extreme and progressive elements of the two main parties don't often organize themselves in seperate parties to be actual worthy contenders during the elections), especially compared to other European countries like The Netherlands (*cough*legalized softdrugs*cough*gay marriages*cough*legalized prostitution*cough*legalized euthanasia*cough*legalized abortion*cough* ;) ).

In most West-European countries, you've got a lot more different parties, with all kinds of opinions, varying from communists (far left) to almost-racists (far right). And to take The Netherlands for example, parties never lead the Government on their own; they have to form a coalition with other parties to reach a majority in de Tweede Kamer (kinda like the House of Representatives [img]smile.gif[/img] ); a minority Government is also possible, but then you'd end up with more opposition than actual supporters. ;) But with more parties in a political system, there's a bigger chance of "fresher" ideas (decide for yourself if that's a good or a bad thing ;) ) and progression in some categories.

Anyways, I'm drifting off... Left is left and right is right, only in Europe you've got more than just two main parties to keep an eye on for the actual Government, most of the time. The political landscape is more diverse.

[ 01-25-2003, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Thanks johnny. ;)

Grojlach, that was interesting and confusing....lol! :D

You're right about conservative and liberal ideals in America crossing party lines, and that's more of what I was thinking. A non-party, conservative or liberal comparison, but as you say, I'm not really sure it's possible.

I know, I'm confused by my own post as well. [img]graemlins/uhoh2.gif[/img] I've edited it 5 times already and I'm still not sure where I was trying to head with my train of thought. Oh well, just go for Johnny's post with the simple answer, then. :D

[ 01-25-2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Even if I didn't understand some of it, I was still impressed! :D

<font color="#ffccff">B-Mann I don't think it is a complete 180 degree swap left for right between the US right and European Right, but it may be close, and there are differences....or so my education by our friends from the EU has ledme to believe ;) </font>

Nonsense. If the democrats ever set up shop in the Netherlands they would be considered to be right-wing (only just short of far-right). Mainland European thought is several places to the left.

Here in the Netherlands (for example) we had a right-wing politician by the name of Pim Fortuyn. Most of the policies he advocated (including immigration) were a VERY WATERED DOWN version of current US and UK policies - for that he was labeled a 'right wing extremist'.

If it wasn't for the fact that he was assassinated, you'd have to laugh...

As an englishman (now a naturalised Dutchman) I can tell you that the system is inferior to the US/UK political system - there are many drawbacks - the most important is that the proportional representation system here produces very weak government and a lack of accountability.

For example - there is no direct representative for the area that you live in - so local issues do not get a 'champion' in parliament. So when someone decides to build a chemical factory in your area - there is no single person to be held accountable.

Then there is the issue of 'backroom deals'.The coalition government has to do deals with other parties in order to get them to agree to work with each other. This means that, before the election, each party has a manifesto (which of course determines how you vote). After the elections - the parties more or less tear up the manifesto as they bargain with each other to form a government) - thus your vote more or less counted for nothing since the policy which you voted on has been bartered away.

Then you have a cabinet which contains ministers of different parties. So for example, the Prime Minister, Defence Secretary, Social Security Secretary, Health Secretary could be be left wing party members - while the Finance minister, Education Minister are right wing, etc. etc.
So what happens when the Social Security Minister decides to up the unemployment benefit? - He is told to 'go jump in a lake' by the Finance Minister' who holds the purse strings... ;)

And in practice, whenever there is a big issue to be decided, parliament and cabinet will debate endlessly for days, weeks and months on end - and when they finally agree on a very watery series of measurements to tackle whatever problem they were discussing, the problem has already either solved itself - or increased to such a severity that the agreed measures will have no effect.

By then of course, it's already time for a new election. Not surprisingly, voter apathy is quite high with statements like: "It doesn't matter who you vote for - they'll all be back - just in different seats".

Florida voters aside - thank your lucky stars - the US system may not be perfect - but it could be a lot worse!

[quote]Originally posted by Skunk:

Quote:

Florida voters aside - thank your lucky stars - the US system may not be perfect - but it could be a lot worse!

[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I have to disagree with you on that count. 'Proportional governments' can be weak but can just as well be strong. accountability is still on the individual level when fx. government ministers fail or at party level at party level at elections.

This is why I like the Danish way of doing it. We have proportional representation in individual constituencies. That means the first few (2-4) seat are given to the candidates who get the most votes. The remaining seats in parliament are then given out proportionally. So candidates are still accountable where they live which can lead to MP's from the same area of the contry working on regional issues together despite differing political standpoints.

Every political system have 'backroom deals'. It's part of politics. And a party which strays too far from it's manifesto can count on being punished by the voters.

I must confess that I don't know how coalitions are built in NL, but in DK caolition aren't usually that wide (last one that wide was in the 70's). Instead parties make coalition with parties of similar (but not identical) political views - and make compromises.

I bit pessimistic view I think.

And you think that is differnt in USA, Skunk? Voter-participation is around 50% and nearly every encumbant wins (they are reqocnized and thus have it easier raising money.) This means "they'll all be back - in the same seats" ;)

I don't see how.

I'm quoting personal experiences of the Dutch system - rather than other 'proportional representation' systems. And it is an accurate description of the Dutch political system...

Other countries probably have better systems (they CAN'T be any worse!)

I don't see how.<font color="#ffccff">see my above examples </font></font>[/QUOTE]

I saw a German poll that said over 55% of Germans would be against the war even if the UN does authorize it.</font>[/QUOTE]btw, a more recent poll here in the Netherlands has pointed out that 89% (!) of the Dutch population is against a War in Iraq, if the UN doesn't think it's necessary. And we still have a Government who's refusing to take a clear side in this matter...

[ 01-30-2003, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

A bit late here, but; No one will be bashing ANY country Skywalker--atleast not here. Read the rules:

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Be Polite: No targeting of another user by harassing or giving unwarranted attention to or attacking ones race, gender, ethnicity or country. Also, respect each person's views and questions--this includes attacks on NEW users.
-----

That goes for USA as well as France.

[ 02-04-2003, 02:51 AM: Message edited by: Ziroc ]

I hope you read my posts that followed that one, Ziroc. I did post a retraction and an apology to Moiraine and anyone else who I offended.

To take this post as an example and not note the rest is simply unfair. I'm merely setting the record straight.

And, of course, you are absolutely right, nation bashing is wrong. I'd also like to make it clear that I did not bash any nation in this thread or in any other for that matter. I DO criticize America, but that's not bashing. There is a subtle difference.

Mark

While it's nice that you posted a retraction, the words were said. Since you now know what you did was wrong, I expect no further problems from you OR anyone else on the matter of the rules in this forum.

I did read the entire thread, and ya better watch out, Moiraine will bust yer butt! :D

That would be all well and good if I happened to bash France, which I did not. I find it interesting that you think Moiraine would bust MY butt considering the other nasty thing posted here by others.

I try to follow all the rules and I hope they are all applied as evenly as possible to everyone.

Thank you.

Mark

lol.. You always feel the need to get the last word in, do you? You heard what I said, and it goes for everyone, not just you.

I've seen you bait many people in this War Forum Skywalker, as well as others have. It needs to stop, and now.