okay, point taken on the liberators verses the ocupation force pole, but the herald is plain off on its "FACTS" (as you say).

FACT ONE: no children were killed on the scene, although the military admits that there were women in the casualties

FACT TWO: the family relations and the number of iraqi vs non iraqi casualties cannot be confirmed... none of the people were carrying any identification and all ID found on site were fakes made by machinery that was present on site. call me crazy, but i dont think islam celebrates weddings by making false passports.

FACT THREE: RAKITI, the village where the "massacre" was supposed to take place, was more than 80 kilometers from the attack. not one building was "blasted to pieces" in the village of rakiti.

FACT FOUR: no instruments, party items, presents, traditional feast foods, or wedding paraphanalia could be found on site. what was found were more than 100 sets of normal iraqi clothing, equipment to make false ID Cards and passports, and weapons.

FACT FIVE: The children shown in the so-called factual video were actually filmed in the village of Rakiti, again noted as being more than 80 kilometers from the scene. there is no way of knowing when the tape of the dead children was made.

not good facts in supporting the media who didnt do their research. at least CNN has what it takes to admit that the media as a whole was wrong to report the story without researching the so called "FACTS"

AND -- Ta-Da -- Terrorist Manuals!!!! I used to come to IWF to geet a balanced view vis-a-vis the American media. Now, all I get here are the lies of Europe and the Arab world -- which are quickly becoming the same in my mind. I'm getting so sick of this place. I can't believe it caused me to waste my time reading about this crap.

I think its premature to dismiss it as Arab and European lies when no other media agency, including Fox and Abc in America, have run a similar story. A live BBC camera crew at the scene yesterday said that the evidence seems to bear out the Iraqi version of events rather than the military one...

EDIT: And the with reference to the media record during this war, it is the American media and military that has earned a reputation for telling bare faced lies. I'll always remember an American military spokesman telling us that the Iraqi 5th army had fled without firing a shot. Then I watched a live embedded Al-Jazeera broadcast with the 5th army all in position and waiting for the Americans to arrive. We had the Americans telling us that another city was completely calm, and again an embedded Al-Jazeera reporter standing with bombs falling all around him, taking us to see the casualties in hospital.

The American media and military promote the myth that you can bomb urban areas with no casualties, then fight to keep them off our screens. Hence the accusations of loyalty to Saddam against Al-Jazeera, even though he had booted them out of Iraqi for being too impartial and therefore not complimentary enough.

Although it is a hellish little forum, you were absolutely right the other night :D

[ 05-23-2004, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Mind being more specific?

Oh, and Al-Jazeera, aren't they the ones that said the US had not taken the airport? Whatever.

[ 05-23-2004, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Something along the lines of It made me chuckle [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-23-2004, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Well, American channels pay Al-Jazeera large amounts of money in order to use their reports, so they can't be all that bad...

[ 05-23-2004, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

shamrock, i've never seen any report labelled as from al jazeera. maybe little terrorist wannabees pay large amounts of money for that garbage news, but the feeling overall is that al jazeera is not trustworthy.

Then (rather than base it on a feeling), why not perform a little experiment?
Read the English version of Al-Jazeera for a while <u>alongside</u> your usual media outlets and see which parts Al-Jazeera leaves out?

Point out the DIFFERENCES here - and demonstrate the bias.
Let's have some REAL examples.
http://english.aljazeera.net/

As for the Coaltion story, it has been changing constantly:

"During the operation, coalition forces came under hostile fire and close air support was provided.

"Coalition forces on the ground recovered numerous weapons, 2 million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, foreign passports and a satcom radio," the statement said.

Asked if the incident was the same one described on videotape, he said, "Yes, it is the same incident."

He added, "We had actionable intelligence to go after a foreign fighters' safe house. It is not our belief that there was a wedding party in the open desert."
"http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/

What? What no false passports and IDs and passport making machines on the scene? Despite an extensive search - and now suddenly they have some? Bagdad Ali would be proud, eh?

If those items had existed, they would have shouted it from the highest roof-tops right from the start - only they didn't. They were probably recovered from some smugglers at another location/time and used as 'evidence' for this incident.

The issue here is solely about the rules of engagement - which appear to be too widely defined, ie if you hear a gun shot, light up the area/call in an airstrike - don't bother to perform a reconnaissance.

I can understand the US not wanting to risk lives - and thus adopting this tactic. But in the end, its ineffective and doesn't save lives at all. Because it increases resentment and garners support for the very groups that the US wants to put down - and those groups live off that resentment and support.
So saving one life today by bombarding an area will cost two lives tommorow in a suicide attack/roadside amubush.

[ 05-24-2004, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

timber, i see what you mean... all just a bunch of anti american rhetoric based off of faulty foreign reporting.

AP Exclusive: Video Film of Wedding Party Captures Revelers Dancing, Singing

By Scheherezade Faramarzi Associated Press Writer
Published: May 23, 2004

RAMADI, Iraq (AP) - The bride arrives in a white pickup truck and is quickly ushered into a house by a group of women. Outside, men recline on brightly colored silk pillows, relaxing on the carpeted floor of a large goat-hair tent as boys dance to tribal songs.
The videotape obtained Sunday by Associated Press Television News captures a wedding party that survivors say was later attacked by U.S. planes early Wednesday, killing up to 45 people. The dead included the cameraman, Yasser Shawkat Abdullah, hired to record the festivities, which ended Tuesday night before the planes struck.

The U.S. military says it is investigating the attack, which took place in the village of Mogr el-Deeb about five miles from the Syrian border, but that all evidence so far indicates the target was a safehouse for foreign fighters.

"There was no evidence of a wedding: no decorations, no musical instruments found, no large quantities of food or leftover servings one would expect from a wedding celebration," Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said Saturday. "There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too."

But video that APTN shot a day after the attack shows fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans and brightly colored beddings used for celebrations, scattered around the bombed out tent.

The wedding videotape shows a dozen white pickup trucks speeding through the desert escorting the bridal car - decorated with colorful ribbons. The bride wears a Western-style white bridal dress and veil. The camera captures her stepping out of the car but does not show a close-up.

An AP reporter and photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors a day after the bombing, were able to identify many of them on the wedding party video - which runs for several hours.

APTN also traveled to Mogr el-Deeb, 250 miles west of Ramadi, the day after the attack to film what the survivors said was the wedding site. A devastated building and remnants of the tent, pots and pans could be seen, along with bits of what appeared to be the remnants of ordnance, one of which bore the marking "ATU-35," similar to those on U.S. bombs.

A water tanker truck can be seen in both the video shot by APTN and the wedding tape obtained from a cousin of the groom.

The singing and dancing seems to go on forever at the all-male tent set up in the garden of the host, Rikad Nayef, for the wedding of his son, Azhad, and the bride Rutbah Sabah. The men later move to the porch when darkness falls, apparently taking advantage of the cool night weather. Children, mainly boys, sit on their fathers' laps; men smoke an Arab water pipe, finger worry beads and chat with one another. It looks like a typical, gender-segregated tribal desert wedding.

As expected, women are out of sight - but according to survivors, they danced to the music of Hussein al-Ali, a popular Baghdad wedding singer hired for the festivities. Al-Ali was buried in Baghdad on Thursday.

Prominently displayed on the videotape was a stocky man with close-cropped hair playing an electric organ. Another tape, filmed a day later in Ramadi and obtained by APTN, showed the musician lying dead in a burial shroud - his face clearly visible and wearing the same tan shirt as he wore when he performed.

As the musicians played, young men milled about, most dressed in traditional white robes. Young men swayed in tribal dances to the monotonous tones of traditional Arabic music. Two children - a boy and a girl - held hands, dancing and smiling. Women are rarely filmed at such occasions, and they appear only in distant glimpses.

Kimmitt said U.S. troops who swept through the area found rifles, machine guns, foreign passports, bedding, syringes and other items that suggested the site was used by foreigners infiltrating from Syria.

The videotape showed no weapons, although they are common among rural Iraqis.

Kimmitt has denied finding evidence that any children died in the raid although a "handful of women" - perhaps four to six - were "caught up in the engagement."

"They may have died from some of the fire that came from the aircraft," he told reporters Friday.

However, an AP reporter obtained names of at least 10 children who relatives said had died. Bodies of five of them were filmed by APTN when the survivors took them to Ramadi for burial Wednesday. Iraqi officials said at least 13 children were killed.

Four days after the attack, the memories of the survivors remain painful - as are their injuries.

Haleema Shihab, 32, one of the three wives of Rikad Nayef, said that as the first bombs fell, she grabbed her seven-month old son, Yousef, and clutching the hands of her five-year-old son, Hamza, started running. Her 15-year-old son, Ali, sprinted alongside her. They managed to run for several yards when she fell - her leg fractured.

"Hamza was yelling, 'mommy,'" Shihab, recalled. "Ali said he was hurt and that he was bleeding. That's the last time I heard him." Then another shell fell and injured Shihab's left arm.

"Hamza fell from my hand and was gone. Only Yousef stayed in my arms. Ali had been hit and was killed. I couldn't go back," she said from her hospital bed in Ramadi. Her arm was in a cast.

She and her stepdaughter, Iqbal - who had caught up with her - hid in a bomb crater. "We were bleeding from 3 a.m. until sunrise," Shihab said.

Soon American soldiers came. One of them kicked her to see if she was alive, she said.

"I pretended I was dead so he wouldn't kill me," said Shihab. She said the soldier was laughing. When Yousef cried, the soldier said: "'No, stop," said Shihab.

Fourteen-year-old Moza, Shihab's stepdaughter, lies on another bed of the hospital room. She was hurt in the leg and cries. Her relatives haven't told her yet that her mother, Sumaya, is dead.

"I fear she's dead," Moza said of her mother. "I'm worried about her."

Moza was sleeping on one side of the porch next to her sisters Siham, Subha and Zohra while her mother slept on the other end. There were many others on the porch, her cousins, stepmothers and other female relatives.

When the first shell fell, Moza and her sisters, Subha, Fatima and Siham ran off together. Moza was holding Subha's hand.

"I don't know where Fatima and my mom were. Siham got hit. She died. I saw Zohra's head gone. I lost consciousness," said Moza, covering her mouth with the end of her headscarf.

Her sister Iqbal, lay in pain on the bed next to her. Her other sister, Subha, was on the upper floor of the hospital, in the same room with two-year-Khoolood. Her small body was bandaged and a tube inserted in her side drained her liver.

Her ankle was bandaged. A red ribbon was tied to her curly hair. Only she and her older brother, Faisal, survived from their immediate family. Her parents and four sisters and brothers were all killed.

In all, 27 members of Rikad Nayef's extended family died - most of them children and women, the family said.

AP-ES-05-23-04 1720EDT
©2004, Media General Inc. All rights reserved


More Anti-American news reporting, I guess. Move along nothing to see here.

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGBL36ONLUD.html
Mark

AND -- Ta-Da -- Terrorist Manuals!!!! I used to come to IWF to geet a balanced view vis-a-vis the American media. Now, all I get here are the lies of Europe and the Arab world -- which are quickly becoming the same in my mind. I'm getting so sick of this place. I can't believe it caused me to waste my time reading about this crap. </font>[/QUOTE]head, sand, ostrich!

well, i guess we'll all just have to settle for a don't know on this one, at best.

rakiti, or 80 kilometers from rakiti? oh wait, now its 250 miles from rakiti???

first all buildings were destroyed, then no buildings but tents, then one building and some tents?

guns for celebrating then lots of guns, then no guns whatsoever?

well, seems the worldwide media is completely unreliable in their research on this story... go along believing the worst about america, but that isnt going to improve how americans think about you guys either...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3741223.stm

Now this is the funny bit....

Ahhh...I just love the USA = good, Rest of World = bad syndrome. It's so refreshing.

Worth reading all of it in any case, it covers the details of who's in the video, who's confirmed dead etc.

EDIT: Same story in Fox suprisingly, can't find it on CNN though:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120721,00.html

Notable quotes:

How can we reconcile the version of events given by the military and the AP cameraman on the ground videotaping the scene the next day apart from bare-faced lying from the military?

Unless of course you believe that between the end of the attack around 4am they drove 80miles to the nearest city, bought lots of instruments etc, drove back and smashed them all up just in time for the camera crews to arrive that day in a cunning plot to frame the US military.

When we treat what the US military tells us with extreme scepticism, you have to understand that they've been caught out so many times before that their version of events is often divorced from reality.

EDIT 2:

Also on abcnews http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040524_138.html

Notable quotes:

Also which can be contrasted with this:

Or perhaps they've been killing their own children just to make the US look bad.

[ 05-24-2004, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

okay, so we've seen how the media wants to paint the picture (which doesnt account for any of the ID Cards, terrorist manuals, weapons, clothing, passport making supplies, etc)... lets look at a different painting:

terrorists are having a celebration after their meeting. they see american troops approaching and open fire. american soldiers respond by calling in an air strike. end of attack. weapons are found all over the place. so are passports, ID making equipment, terrorist manuals, and iraqi sets of clothing for various people. nobody at the "celebration" was carrying any ID. Weapons and ID equipment/terrorist manuals are confiscated, that type of material is not left laying in the middle of the dessert. then the media shows up.

10-12 survivors of the incident, terrorists from the site, decide that they will use the cover they have prepared... that a wedding was bombed out, instead of the actual terrorist meeting being held. they release a video more than a month old of children being buried in a village far away, spliced with some video of the actual dead from the scene. unfortunately, no one can even get straight a simple detail like whether or not the bride and groom survived, and their media story is full of all sorts of holes.

the media doesnt do any research at all. they report a story that cant even agree on the location of the incident, how many died, whether the bride and groom (two essential players in any wedding) are alive, and if there were any weapons present.

CNN is shown pictures of onscene, during the attack, imediately following, and shown the evidence confiscated and concludes: not a wedding.

AP goes to the site... looks at what the military left behind after thourough site neutralization, and at a creatively spliced tape and concludes: they hate americans.

and so you see, its all about how the media CHOOSES to spin the product. the story i just created is as likely as anything the confused media has reported.

It would be easily cleared up if the military showed us video footage of these fake passports and the passport making machinery, the terrorist manuals etc. So far we just have their word, versus a ton of evidence and eyewitness accounts saying otherwise. Do you have a link to the pictures that you say CNN was shown to prove it wasn't a wedding?

Read again:

Not 'released' or taken a month ago, but filmed on wednesday.

And as for your point about how the media chooses to spin the story, I quite agree with your caution which is why I got sources from a few news stations. Fox has been the most biased news stations covering the war and a staunch supporter the whole way through, so why would it choose to run a story damaging the American heroes if it was based on such shaky evidence as you suggest?

[ 05-24-2004, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Again, if this were true, why would I continue to torture myself with all the Eurotwit muck on this forum?