Epona, don't worry about it [img]smile.gif[/img] it's okay *hugs*

Please do. But can I have the beer (anaesthesia!) first? ;)

Please, folks, don't start any in-fighting in this thread. It's not necessary. I don't believe anybody is deliberately insulting anyone here and it will only lead to ill-feeling

So the party will continue without him? Not too much of a surprise. If it was a political shooting, though, will the killer stop at Pym though?

to Epona

consider the hatchet buried [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thank you Melusine, you have no idea how much that means to me - I feel like a complete jerk. You're a good friend.

Well Arledrian, I don't think it's about them being more determined, because however determined, one person only gets one vote, so it's not a matter of determinedness IMO.
However, believe it or not, I am happy that his party are carrying on, I oppose their views and what they stand for, but they are entitled to carry on, and I don't mind, since they are unlikely to get in.
That said, I offer condolences to those close to him, even though my views conflict, I wouldn't have wished death on this man.
It is indeed a grim day for the very backbone of democracy. :(

Thank you Ar-Cunin, you're a decent bloke. I'm sorry for being so damn stupid and glad we can lay it to rest. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hopefully! The last thing that anyone needs is a maniac out to kill all of the people who's political views conflict with his! Or even just one of them.

Let's hope they catch the bastard fast.

Thank you Ar-Cunin, you're a decent bloke. I'm sorry for being so damn stupid and glad we can lay it to rest. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]No worries [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW have you read Lioness' name-game thread - I made a poem about Phil (I think it's on page two)

Hopefully! The last thing that anyone needs is a maniac out to kill all of the people who's political views conflict with his! Or even just one of them.

Let's hope they catch the bastard fast.</font>[/QUOTE]Exactly my thought. The killer should be apprehended. In addition, anybody that may have hired or worked with his plan. Without all that there may be a repeat even if security is stepped up

How are his family doing btw? is there word on them? I should imagine they're quite distraught at the moment

A 'measly 15%' is quite alot here. Especially since it has to be split between so many party's.
Oh damned. Dead... I still find it hard to believe.
Did anything like this ever happened before in Dutch history(20/21 century)?
Don't people ever learn? You can't fight idea's with bullets.

[ 05-06-2002, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

In fact you're more likely to strengthen them by giving them a martyr.

Apparently the closest thing in history was the Assassination of Willem van Oranje by Balthasar Gerardt in the year of 1584...

In fact you're more likely to strengthen them by giving them a martyr.</font>[/QUOTE]I know Neb, I know... That's what I'm fearing as well. But at this point, I'm trying not to think about the political effects this will have, the shock is too fresh... :(

In fact you're more likely to strengthen them by giving them a martyr.</font>[/QUOTE]I know Neb, I know... That's what I'm fearing as well. But at this point, I'm trying not to think about the political effects this will have, the shock is too fresh... :( </font>[/QUOTE]A martyr? How long do you think list Fortuyn will last withoud Fortuyn?
He wasn't such a fasist as everybody thinks btw. More a colorfull figure. Not as bad as The Winter in Belgium, Haider in Austria or Le Penn in france. He actually had a lot of voters among the immigrants.
I still don't believe this is happening here. In the Netherlands, politicians go to work on their bikes(no protection). Everyone can just walk into the Binnenhof(seat of the goverment). The politicians just talk to tourists, visitors. Nothing like this has ever happened.

Please do. But can I have the beer (anaesthesia!) first? ;) </font>[/QUOTE]sure, first things first. btw, could you save me some ? I just ran completely out of beer. lol (how could i let this happen ?)

And another bad thing is that now that it has happened once, what's to say others won't see how easy it was and decide they feel like eliminating a political opponent.
Hopefully that won't happen, and once again, I give my condolences to his friends and family, who lost him just because of differing views.

Gah, it sucks when that happens :( I don't have any booze whatsoever in the house at the moment - it may be surprising to some, but I wasn't even drunk when I first looked in this thread :(

It's still the question wether that party will withdraw now or not, so let's leave that question in the middle... They can always continue without him in his honour...

[ 05-06-2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

It's still the question wether that party will withdraw now or not, so let's leave that question in the middle... They can always continue without him in his honour...</font>[/QUOTE]They might get a few extra 'sympathy votes'. But the party will fall appart eventually.

It's still the question wether that party will withdraw now or not, so let's leave that question in the middle... They can always continue without him in his honour...</font>[/QUOTE]They might get a few extra 'sympathy votes'. But the party will fall appart eventually.</font>[/QUOTE]But those few extra "sympathy votes" could very well ruin Dutch politics for at least the next 4 years, it's so close to the elections that the chance people will vote for a party's opinions is even smaller, and let emotions lead their voting behaviour...

But heck, I disgust myself by even doing speculations like these close after his death, sorry for that... :(

Don't, Groj *hugs*
heck, I wouldn't doubt your integrity for a moment. I know what you mean, but it's impossible not to think about the political consequences, at least to some extent. I feel literally sick right now, have a hell of a stomach hurt just from shock, and I think everybody is shocked by his death. Still it's not disgusting or disrespectful to think about how things must continue in Holland. I think I agree with Dreamer - Pim WAS the party - could you name any other member of his party who could even come close to him (if you can even name one at all)? He was the driving force, and now that he's gone, I don't think there will be much left.

[ 05-06-2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

Don't, Groj *hugs*
heck, I wouldn't doubt your integrity for a moment. I know what you mean, but it's impossible not to think about the political consequences, at least to some extent. I feel literally sick right now, have a hell of a stomach hurt just from shock, and I think everybody is shocked by his death. Still it's not disgusting or disrespectful to think about how things must continue in Holland. I think I agree with Dreamer - Pim WAS the party - could you name any other member of his party who could even come close to him (if you can even name one at all)? He was the driving force, and now that he's gone, I don't think there will be much left.</font>[/QUOTE]What I meant to say is that people don't even care about who will take his place - they will vote for List Pim Fortuyn no matter who is taking his place as first candidate, especially if you see some of his supporters' reactions on TV right now... That's what I'm afraid of.

I'm not too sure about that... People are certainly outraged, but what they wanted was to vote Pim Fortuyn. When his party got over a third of the votes in Rotterdam in the municipal elections, ALL the votes were for him specifically. I'd sooner expect people to vote Leefbaar Nederland.... but we'll have to see. Personally I think the elections should be postponed. Like someone said on TV just now, there is no way the elections, if held next week, would give an accurate representation of the public's will.

There are still about 9 days to go before the election. Once people have calmed down, I would suspect people will vote normally

In full agreement. :(

Oh please... :rolleyes:

I agree too, Groj.

The elections are going to be postponed, that's for sure. At least, that's what I'm hearing everywhere...

Well, if that's true I can't say I'm not glad about that.

Oh please... :rolleyes:
</font>[/QUOTE]whatever.

arledrain, are you hearing this on the TV? I don't see anything on the net yet

I'm getting it from the radio, from people in Fortuyn's political party. Maybe it's just rubbish though, I really can't tell.

Well I am. people are creatures of media. They WILL vote for Pim fortyun out of symphaty. Don't forget the most people, look at the voting percentages the last years, are really not that interested in politics and will vote for the person most on screen and with the most "snappy" soundbites.
Many people will, if the vote will go on over nine days, vote for Pim Fortyun because they heard the news, saw the pictures and all that will still be in their minds when they see all the names before them in the votingbooth.

[ 05-06-2002, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Hanz123 ]

damn! if it came more generally I'd be less skeptical but frfom his own party?

Well, I certainly don't think that people will be swayed from the other parties, but I admit you may be right after all that former Pim-supporters will give him a sympathy vote. I've seen the footage of the crowd at the Binnenhof, and I'll admit I may have had too much faith in the intelligence of the population.

And of course it's all over the telly and radio here... duh.

The intelligencec of a crowd is inversely proportional to the nunmber of people in it ;)

well, hopefully they will postpone the election then, all things considered

No kidding, they're only one step away from being classified as a cult or a sect... The images of those people rioting at the Binnenhof is by far the most horrible and frightening thing I've seen since the WTC attack... :(

[ 05-06-2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

I am also really interested (not positively) what will happen at the uefa cup finale wednesday. In Rotterdam with a Rotterdam club (Fyenoord) with Rotterdam being the home base of pim fortyun, and the club support not having a all to good reputation concerning public safety.

My God - you're right. I wouldn't be surprised if they are going to move the match to a new location completely now...

I knew a european finale in a Rotterdam stadion with a Rotterdam club was to good to be true!

Nevertheless, it's about the least of our worries right now... I really couldn't care less about it.