<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cerek the Barbaric:


OK, Fair Enough. I didn't think about how a legitimate - and seemingly harmless - question could still potentially lead to flaming of the Mods.

Thank you for the explanation.<hr></blockquote>


If you're asking for a clarification of something, and doing it in a non-confrontational manner, then I have no problem with it being on forum. However, if you are challenging a decision or questioning a moderator's ruling as being "unfair", it's best to do in in private mail or personal message...that's what they're there for.

Sorry, but we've had far too many bandwagons roll through here. At one time it may have been ok, but after all the fallout that occurred here in September 2001 and after, it's better that we err on the side of conservatism.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cloudbringer:

The reason this is such an issue, is many people here will tell you of other places that went up in flames and ended up closing because of the horrendous atmosphere (troll haven!) that can occur when too much of that 'questioning' and outright defying of the rules happens. Z is strict because he wants to keep IW a comfortable, fun and useful place for all it's members. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cloudy<hr></blockquote>

Hm...the name "BG Dungeon" taxis back to me for some reason... ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sigmar:
Sorry for asking again but what happened to Lavindathar? Was anyone offended by his post, was he banned becuase of what he posted (I cant find the thread in which he addressed some of the mods, namely Larry,Saz and Cloudy)

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Sigmar ]<hr></blockquote>


Lavi is fine, and in no trouble. Please, let's not indulge in speculation, ok? [img]smile.gif[/img] As Larry said, he deleted the thread of his own initiative.

<font color="cyan">

Once again Sigmar, thanx for ur concern. I deleted the post, because a mod thought I wud get suspended for it. I on the other hand, thought it was perfectly aceptable. But in this time of unstability, I thought I best delete it.

Ok, considering I was the one who was part of the disagreement on the nude beaches thread, I will say I agree with what Downunda says, and I think that we should all respect the moderators.

But I do believe in freedom of opinion and speech...but if this greatly offends someone, and it can be seen why, then I think that censorship is perfectly ok.

There is only one little quibble I have, but I am not going to argue as it was Big Z who made the comment: He said that kids should not read posts about nude beaches....now, I think this is a regional difference. My likkle bro (Beaumanoir) is only 13, and if I told him he was too young to look at a thread about nude beaches, he'd laugh at me. He knows every swear word in the book, and he has probably seen many naked people (not in a sexual way, but maybe passin on a beach or somethin) whilst on holiday.

He is 12. I am 17. And if the thread is held in a mature fashion, I don't see why a 8 year old cant talk about nude beaches.......if you follow.

EG - Just checking back on GD, in the top 10 threads, 2 read:

Pedophiles and the Church - (I think he spelt Pedophile wrong)
Bra Shopping

Both of these too me seem nothing subjects (as in trouble wise), and if both are held in mature conversation will be fine (i've not read either as of yet)...but aren't they as bad/if not worse as a discussion on nude beaches? I'm not questioning, just wondering ;)

BTW - this isn't trying to cause an argument, just offerin my opinion, and if what Z says, goes. :D </font>

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Lavindathar ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Donut:
My question is: Do I have to show the same degree of respek to moderators of other forums who are posting on GD (such as Cludbringer) as I have to show moderators of GD (such as Memknock)?

Or are there degrees of respek?

:D <hr></blockquote>


You need to be SLAPPED. ;) Any ladies want to volunteer? [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

Seriously, though, since the question has come up: you (collectively) treat ALL moderators with respect, whether they're in their own forum or not. This question was resolved in the late War on Terrorism forum a couple of months ago, when a certain mod was verbally shot down by another (rather rude) member, saying to "butt out because this wasn't their forum to moderate", and Ziroc came back pretty quick with a ruling that you treat ANY mod with respect and follow their advice, regardless of what forum they may be in.

We don't have "global mods", per se, at Ironworks; and that's partially for our own sanity [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] . However, all mods are to be treated as if they were "global mods", whether or not they have the ability to lock threads and move topics.

And, regardless of status, mod or member, ANY posting member here is to be treated with respect. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Apologies for 4 posts in a row: I'm just catching up on today's news at the forum.

Cheers,

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:


And, regardless of status, mod or member, ANY posting member here is to be treated with respect. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Apologies for 4 posts in a row: I'm just catching up on today's news at the forum.

Cheers,<hr></blockquote>

Hey I Wanted to say that :(

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:



And, regardless of status, mod or member, ANY posting member here is to be treated with respect. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,<hr></blockquote>

I was just about to say that.Let's hope you don't need to be a mod to get some respect.As in everyday life,we should respect each other here,mod or not,male or female,christian or non-christian,and so on,and so on.

BTW Let me take this opportunity to say the mods IMHO all do a great job [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

<font color=skyblue>
To answer Lavi's question...
I personally think that Ziroc would want to keep any thread that supported what the "norm of the society" would call taboo out of the forums because the parents of any American child could easily try to sue Ziroc for contributing to the delinquency of a minor. That is a big offense in our land...and Ziroc does not want to be seen as supporting social taboos, as much as he does not want to be seen supporting Pirated games and movies. I think that sums it all up...but is my guess...</font>

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Larry_OHF ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
<font color=skyblue>
any American</font><hr></blockquote>

<font color="cyan">That is why I put the word "regional" in my post.

In England, none of this would matter. Kids no about sex at the age of 10, you can swear and no one bats an eye unless it is directed at someone. And that thing about someone suing Z just sounds stupid to me?

I guess everyone over there is too concerned with money. (trying not to generalise, but its just true from a European point of view).

Hmmm, I dunno. If thats the way the American public works, then I guess we will have to live in a forum of censorship.</font>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lavindathar:
<font color="cyan">

Once again Sigmar, thanx for ur concern. I deleted the post, because a mod thought I wud get suspended for it. I on the other hand, thought it was perfectly aceptable. But in this time of unstability, I thought I best delete it.

Ok, considering I was the one who was part of the disagreement on the nude beaches thread, I will say I agree with what Downunda says, and I think that we should all respect the moderators.

But I do believe in freedom of opinion and speech...but if this greatly offends someone, and it can be seen why, then I think that censorship is perfectly ok.

There is only one little quibble I have, but I am not going to argue as it was Big Z who made the comment: He said that kids should not read posts about nude beaches....now, I think this is a regional difference. My likkle bro (Beaumanoir) is only 13, and if I told him he was too young to look at a thread about nude beaches, he'd laugh at me. He knows every swear word in the book, and he has probably seen many naked people (not in a sexual way, but maybe passin on a beach or somethin) whilst on holiday.

He is 12. I am 17. And if the thread is held in a mature fashion, I don't see why a 8 year old cant talk about nude beaches.......if you follow.

EG - Just checking back on GD, in the top 10 threads, 2 read:

Pedophiles and the Church - (I think he spelt Pedophile wrong)
Bra Shopping

Both of these too me seem nothing subjects (as in trouble wise), and if both are held in mature conversation will be fine (i've not read either as of yet)...but aren't they as bad/if not worse as a discussion on nude beaches? I'm not questioning, just wondering ;)

BTW - this isn't trying to cause an argument, just offerin my opinion, and if what Z says, goes. :D </font>

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Lavindathar ]<hr></blockquote>

Lavi, you bring up some good points. One of the problems we have to deal with at IW is that this is an International forum, albeit based in the States. I say "International" because we have posters from around the world, and they all come from different backgrounds with differing social mores.

I am very much aware that Europeans, for example do not view nudity and certain "colorful" epithets in language as bad. Your example of Beaumanoir's not being offended by nude beaches is a case in point. Unfortunately, here in the States and possibly other areas of the world, such topics are considered off-color for young people under a certain age (17 comes to mind here in the US).

Now, suppose one of our junior members is reading one of the "mature" topics, and Mommy comes in and looks over his/her shoulder; or, junior brings up the topic at the dinner table. Mommy, already being fearful of the Internet and its negative effects on her child, reacts with *WHAT KIND OF PLACES ARE YOU GOING ON THE INTERNET?* Best case, Junior gets his privileges revoked (which is bad). Worst case? Ziroc could be slapped with a lawsuit for providing material inappropriate to a minor.

Ok, that's a fictional account, but quite plausible in this day and age. Unless Ziroc restricts Ironworks to be a 18 or older only forum (which we DON'T want, we'd lose a load of wonderful members), we have to abide, unfortunately, by the stricter set of rules dictated by the different societies we have posting here.

That's not to say, of course, that it's set in stone. Mature topics do flourish here. It depends on how they are handled, and how people are conducting themselves in them. If members start acting up, misbehaving, or using foul or crude language to express things that could better be expressed in other manners (for example, using the f*** word to express an intimate act when "copulate" would have done just as well, or better)...well, that's when Ziroc or one of us steps in and closes the thread.

Anyway, I hope this helps clear things up a bit. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,

As long as the discussions are held in a mature, non-cursing/flamebaiting manner, then it should be allowed within reason. For instance, I'm a poster on the "Pedophilia and the Church" thread. I am also a mother (two of my younguns are homeschooled so around when I post). Thus far, I have absolutely no problem with them reading that thread. It may hold a controversial 'adult' theme, but the discussion is being conducted with a clean-languaged respect. Such (the topic) is an unfortunate and reprehensible part of our society and certainly taboo, but it exists.

Posts which condone or advertise pirated software, etc. are not acceptable as that is clearly against the law (rather than the mere discussion of their existence).

Am I understanding the difference clearly enough, Saz (or Cloudy or any other mod)?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lavindathar:


<font color="cyan">That is why I put the word "regional" in my post.

In England, none of this would matter. Kids no about sex at the age of 10, you can swear and no one bats an eye unless it is directed at someone. And that thing about someone suing Z just sounds stupid to me?

I guess everyone over there is too concerned with money. (trying not to generalise, but its just true from a European point of view).

Hmmm, I dunno. If thats the way the American public works, then I guess we will have to live in a forum of censorship.</font><hr></blockquote>

Lavi, this ISN'T an "English-only" forum. If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The thing about suing Ziroc may sound stupid to you, but it is a fact of life and a reality. This forum is housed and owned in the United States, and must abide by the laws of the land and its social mores, regardless of how you feel about it.

Lavi, if you aren't happy with how this is, maybe this isn't the right forum for you. I'm not telling you to leave, but it's clear that you don't like the way things are run around here. I would suggest trying to find a smaller, more regional forum instead.

Respectfully,
-Sazerac

Just want to post that I think the mods here do a super job, as I have said over and over. BG Dungeon, as Sazerac says, is a fine cautionary experience, and I think that the Bioware ones are horrible.

<font color="cyan">Thats cool, thanx Saz. This is what being a great mod is all about, not shouting at me for my opinions (i had a feeling I would get flamed for what I wrote)...so thanx.

But all I can respond with is: if that case could happen, then that child needs a new set of parents (once again, this is a cultural difference)...and secondly, Ziroc isn't providing the material, so could he really be held responsible?? I don't know, so is there someone in the legal profession who could clarify?? Or did you say it knowing that Saz?

Hmm, you've just posted again!!

See, why have u started kicking off about it? I am just querying things, as it is hard for me to understand...their must be a very big cultural difference, and its hard to grasp. You should realise that I am just trying to understand what happens over there, and it is very hard for me to do. So please dont shout.
</font>

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Lavindathar ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:


Lavi, this ISN'T an "English-only" forum. If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The thing about suing Ziroc may sound stupid to you, but it is a fact of life and a reality. This forum is housed and owned in the United States, and must abide by the laws of the land and its social mores, regardless of how you feel about it.
<hr></blockquote>
Truly said.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
As long as the discussions are held in a mature, non-cursing/flamebaiting manner, then it should be allowed within reason. For instance, I'm a poster on the "Pedophilia and the Church" thread. I am also a mother (two of my younguns are homeschooled so around when I post). Thus far, I have absolutely no problem with them reading that thread. It may hold a controversial 'adult' theme, but the discussion is being conducted with a clean-languaged respect. Such (the topic) is an unfortunate and reprehensible part of our society and certainly taboo, but it exists.

Posts which condone or advertise pirated software, etc. are not acceptable as that is clearly against the law (rather than the mere discussion of their existence).

Am I understanding the difference clearly enough, Saz (or Cloudy or any other mod)?<hr></blockquote>


It is ultimately Ziroc's call, Garnet, but yes, I let a lot of stuff by that I consider "marginal" because I prefer to give members here the benefit of the doubt of conducting the topic in a mature and respectful manner.

The paedophilia thread is a case in point. I'm watching it closely, but everything there seems to be conducted very well.

The reason that, IMO, the "nude beach" thread got nuked was that the topic veered off of nude beaches and onto the pros and cons of homosexuality (and let's let that stop here!). Members started getting angry and disrepectful of others, and I think Ziroc made the call to end it before the situation escalated.

It's a judgement call on our parts, but we do the best we can.

Cheers,

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:


It's a judgement call on our parts, but we do the best we can.

<hr></blockquote>

And that, in a nutshell, is how I approach my duties as a Mod. Granted, I may not have do deal with the controversy that the GD Mods face on a daily basis, but the more I get to know them, the more I respect their evenhandedness.

The next time you get annoyed by a Mod's decision, just think what the alternative would be..........anarchy - and that would benefit no-one.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lavindathar:
<font color="cyan">Thats cool, thanx Saz. This is what being a great mod is all about, not shouting at me for my opinions (i had a feeling I would get flamed for what I wrote)...so thanx.

But all I can respond with is: if that case could happen, then that child needs a new set of parents (once again, this is a cultural difference)...and secondly, Ziroc isn't providing the material, so could he really be held responsible?? I don't know, so is there someone in the legal profession who could clarify?? Or did you say it knowing that Saz?

Hmm, you've just posted again!!

See, why have u started kicking off about it? I am just querying things, as it is hard for me to understand...their must be a very big cultural difference, and its hard to grasp. You should realise that I am just trying to understand what happens over there, and it is very hard for me to do. So please dont shout.
</font>

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Lavindathar ]<hr></blockquote>


*sigh* Ok, first off, Lavi, the reason I posted what I did the second time, was that you seem to me (as I interpreted) to be rather unhappy with how things are being run here. I wasn't shouting at you, nor telling you to go away...but I know that if I was unhappy somewhere, I wouldn't want to stay. The reason I thought you were unhappy was that you keep bringing up this subject; that's all.

Second: I agree with you fully about the kids and their parents. It's sad to say, but a large majority of parents here have no problem making kids, but have a BIG problem with taking responsibility for them. They are only too ready to shove responsibility onto something else. The kid does something bad? Sue the TV station for showing that violent movie the other night. The kid makes poor grades in school? Sue the school district for not educating the kid. Sue, blame, rally...do ANYTHING but admit that maybe its THEIR fault or the kid's fault for messing up.

Unfortunately, here in the States, we have a legal system that is largely based on the deferring of personal responsibility. We have old women who sue McDonald's for serving them too hot a cup of coffee when they were dumb enough to drive off and spill it in their own lap, for example.

Based on the laws of the U.S. at this time, a network administrator or a webmaster CAN be held responsible for the content that is on his or her site, whether or not they know about it. And, believe it or not, our laws are far more lenient than other country's laws regarding online content. (I think France and Germany are far more strict; maybe Ramon or Moraine could fill in here?) So that's why we have to be as conservative as we are here.

Anyway, my intent wasn't to peeve you. I hope this makes my explanation a bit clearer.

Cheers,

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Donut:
My question is: Do I have to show the same degree of respek to moderators of other forums who are posting on GD (such as Cludbringer) as I have to show moderators of GD (such as Memknock)?

Or are there degrees of respek?

:D <hr></blockquote>


Only if they're dancing nekkid in fountains. ;)

<font color="cyan">You didnt peeve me, youve satisfied me, as I have no more quibbles.

And I am not unhappy at all. It ain't your fault the US is how it is, and I know in an ideal world, you could run the forum without the constraints off the outside legal world.

And if u agree with my second point, and the first is nullified, Im once again completely satisfied.

And that old woman wouldn't have got away with that in England, she'd have been laughed away!</font>

I agree 100% with the following:

The Mods are the LAW.

This is not a place of free speach, it is a private board owned by an individual so free speach issues are not relevent.

I agreed to the TOS when I accepted an account here.

Disputes you may have with Mods MUST be done through PM or Email and NOT in the public boards.


I AM aghast and saddened by the following:

My nude beach thread is used as the example of unacceptable topics especially in light of some other topics. The originator of this thread asked, would you talk to a 10 year old you didnt know about nude beaches in real life...no...but then I dont go chasing down children to hold conversations with. Would I discuss those beaches with my children in the room...Yes I have and would..I was talking about nudity and NOT sex. But I do not argue with the reasonijhg or the rights for the thread to be closed...Im just sad that it is the EXAMPLE being used to illustrate badness. :(

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Garnet FalconDance:
As long as the discussions are held in a mature, non-cursing/flamebaiting manner, then it should be allowed within reason. For instance, I'm a poster on the "Pedophilia and the Church" thread. I am also a mother (two of my younguns are homeschooled so around when I post). Thus far, I have absolutely no problem with them reading that thread. It may hold a controversial 'adult' theme, but the discussion is being conducted with a clean-languaged respect. Such (the topic) is an unfortunate and reprehensible part of our society and certainly taboo, but it exists.

Posts which condone or advertise pirated software, etc. are not acceptable as that is clearly against the law (rather than the mere discussion of their existence).

Am I understanding the difference clearly enough, Saz (or Cloudy or any other mod)?<hr></blockquote>


Garnet, you have a very clear picture. [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW, just thought I'd mention, I like to read your posts. They are usually well written and obviously well thought out.

The main thing to keep in mind here as well, is the fact that IW is like Ziroc's house. It is NOT a publicly owned medium and so he can make rules as he chooses. Frankly I think he's pretty fair about them. [img]smile.gif[/img] And we do get alot of young people here by virtue of being a gaming forum.

Cloudy

In my opinion the Mods do a good job, certainly better than some other forums I've seen where neither the Admin or the Mods ever ban any trolls or delete offensive posts.

But it would make their job SO much easier if we just all tried to NOT post offensive things and IGNORED it when someone else did, or if their offensive post seems to be based on mistaken information then do nothing more than tell them where they're mistaken.

Just my 2 cents.

<font color=lightblue> *peeps in* Everything seems to be getting heavy... ~bounces in and runs around hugging everyone~ Mods are lovely and fair ppl doing a hard job. And it's an honour to be in Ziroc's house! ~jiggles happily~ *blows kisses all around* ~special SsSSmMmMoOOOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoCcChHhHEeEs SSs for our founder Ziroc!~

*singing, "We're really lucky, luuuucky luucky lucky!!"*
</font>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lavindathar:
<font color="cyan">You didnt peeve me, youve satisfied me, as I have no more quibbles.

And I am not unhappy at all. It ain't your fault the US is how it is, and I know in an ideal world, you could run the forum without the constraints off the outside legal world.

And if u agree with my second point, and the first is nullified, Im once again completely satisfied.

And that old woman wouldn't have got away with that in England, she'd have been laughed away!</font><hr></blockquote>

Cool. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] And I agree with you on all your points...especially about the old woman. Sad thing is, it didn't use to be that way here either. I don't know at what point things changed. It's really sad.

Just out of curiousity, have you ever seen the movie "L.A. Story"? Silly movie, Steve Martin and a British actress named Victoria Tennet, I think...anyway, the one scene in the movie that I remember so well was when her character had just arrived at L.A. and was talking with Steve Martin and a bunch of other people. When they asked her if she was tired from her flight in, she laughed and said lightly, "Oh, nothing that a shower and a good f--- wouldn't cure." Everyone at the party stiffened in horror, except Steve Martin's character, who was enchanted by her.

Anyway, I brought that up to sort of show the difference between the two cultures: the girl's use of the f-word, in her culture, was completely acceptable, whereas the others at the party (American) were mortified. I think we kind of have that a little bit here as well. It's one reason why I do allow certain "slip-passes" on lingo, as do the rest of us. It's only when it's taken to extremes, and used abusively, or certain terms that are just completely unacceptable, that we have to step in.

Cheers,

<font color="cyan">Glad you understand Saz, and I'm glad you didn't take it like I was dissing your country...but it is hard for me to sometimes understand American culture.

AS to the LA example, I can see that happening, and over here, IRL, for example, at college, I will walk in, and hear at least 5 different words, 20 times, within 10mins. Never used offensively (apart from joking)...i.e - calling one of your mates a silly f***.

So thanx for understanding, and I will try to take all this into account if I ever make a "sensitive" post...but if i swear...ITS CULTURAL!!hehe, thanx Saz.</font>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:

Just out of curiousity, have you ever seen the movie "L.A. Story"? Silly movie, Steve Martin and a British actress named Victoria Tennet, I think...anyway, the one scene in the movie that I remember so well was when her character had just arrived at L.A. and was talking with Steve Martin and a bunch of other people. When they asked her if she was tired from her flight in, she laughed and said lightly, "Oh, nothing that a shower and a good f--- wouldn't cure." Everyone at the party stiffened in horror, except Steve Martin's character, who was enchanted by her.

Cheers,<hr></blockquote>

You know the only line from that movie I remember is the one where Steve Martin is getting ready for work, and says something like "Its a good thing I don't have breasts, I would never get out of the house in the morning..Id stay home and play with them" or something along those lines...good movie..I thought. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MagiK:


You know the only line from that movie I remember is the one where Steve Martin is getting ready for work, and says something like "Its a good thing I don't have breasts, I would never get out of the house in the morning..Id stay home and play with them" or something along those lines...good movie..I thought. [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>


Hee hee, I remember that one! My favorite was the rhyme he would say: "The pointy birds, O pointy-pointy, anoint my head, anointy-nointy!" [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MagiK:

Disputes you may have with Mods MUST be done through PM or Email and NOT in the public boards.<hr></blockquote>

- The first post has been edited, never my intention to mean what it sounded like *sorry* [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MagiK:
I AM aghast and saddened by the following:

My nude beach thread is used as the example of unacceptable topics especially in light of some other topics. The originator of this thread asked, would you talk to a 10 year old you didnt know about nude beaches in real life...no...but then I dont go chasing down children to hold conversations with. Would I discuss those beaches with my children in the room...Yes I have and would..I was talking about nudity and NOT sex. But I do not argue with the reasoning or the rights for the thread to be closed...Im just sad that it is the EXAMPLE being used to illustrate badness. :( <hr></blockquote>

[img]smile.gif[/img] I wasn't using it as an example of badness but an example of a thread that some people (including me, until I had a think about it) thought shouldn't be closed down. As for chasing down children to hold conversations, you don't really have control of that on an internet forum. Kids will read what they want to read whether you intend it for them or not ;) and while you might be happy for your kids to be involved in mature conversations another parent might not. And that is what it all comes down to - respect for other people views and opinions. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thanks again to the Moderators and Ziroc for doing such a great job!

Phil

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Downunda ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lavindathar:


Once again Sigmar, thanx for ur concern. I deleted the post, because a mod thought I wud get suspended for it. I on the other hand, thought it was perfectly aceptable. But in this time of unstability, I thought I best delete it.<hr></blockquote>

I don't know what that post was, but if it was anything that was openly critical of a mod or their performance then you know that our ToS does not allow that do be done in public. This has been communicated many, many times. If you are unhappy about something that a mod has done - email them.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Ok, considering I was the one who was part of the disagreement on the nude beaches thread, I will say I agree with what Downunda says, and I think that we should all respect the moderators.

But I do believe in freedom of opinion and speech...but if this greatly offends someone, and it can be seen why, then I think that censorship is perfectly ok.<hr></blockquote>

I believe in freedom of speech too. I also believe in respecting the wishes of the owner of a house that I'm staying in. Contrary to what most people think, Ironworks is NOT a free country - it is private property "owned" by Ziroc. If anything it is a benevolent autocracy. This is usually the root of all misunderstandings. ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>There is only one little quibble I have, but I am not going to argue as it was Big Z who made the comment: He said that kids should not read posts about nude beaches....now, I think this is a regional difference. My likkle bro (Beaumanoir) is only 13, and if I told him he was too young to look at a thread about nude beaches, he'd laugh at me. He knows every swear word in the book, and he has probably seen many naked people (not in a sexual way, but maybe passin on a beach or somethin) whilst on holiday.

He is 12. I am 17. And if the thread is held in a mature fashion, I don't see why a 8 year old cant talk about nude beaches.......if you follow. <hr></blockquote>

A bit narrowminded of you, don't you think, mate? You need to see the flip side of the coint - for every worldly 13-year old like Beaumanoir, there's one who is quite naive and innocent (they do exist, you know). We need to cater for ALL kinds here - not just the streetwise.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>EG - Just checking back on GD, in the top 10 threads, 2 read:

Pedophiles and the Church - (I think he spelt Pedophile wrong)
Bra Shopping

Both of these too me seem nothing subjects (as in trouble wise), and if both are held in mature conversation will be fine (i've not read either as of yet)...but aren't they as bad/if not worse as a discussion on nude beaches? I'm not questioning, just wondering ;) <hr></blockquote>

You're allowed to wonder and you're allowed to disagree - just don't make an issue of it in public. That's called fishing. ;) Email Ziroc, Saz or myself if you want further clarification on anything. I ALWAYS respond to any email sent to me, no matter how trivial. ;)

We're not trying to sweep anything under the carpet here - but you need to trust that we can do our jobs effectively here. ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>BTW - this isn't trying to cause an argument, just offerin my opinion, and if what Z says, goes. :D
<hr></blockquote>

Thanks, mate. Your opinion is always appreciated - just express it in a tactful, respectful way and you'll always get a fair hearing. ;)

Edit: I posted this response before I read your replies, Lav. Hope I'm not inflaming this, I just wanted to put my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img] in. ;)

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lavindathar:

So thanx for understanding, and I will try to take all this into account if I ever make a "sensitive" post...but if i swear...ITS CULTURAL!!hehe, thanx Saz.</font><hr></blockquote>

Don't worry, Lav - if you do something that contravenes our ToS but the intent was not there to offend, then you'll probably just get a talking-to. We're not trigger-happy here, and we know how to determine if intent or malice are in people's posts. So you're ok! :D

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:


Hm...the name "BG Dungeon" taxis back to me for some reason... ;) <hr></blockquote>

I want to share a story with you guys. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Anyone remember a forum called BGDungeon? Some of you may even be refugees from that forum. BGDungeon was massive – about 10,000 members. It crashed and burned about a year ago because of this very problem – abuse and disrespect of authority by a small group of people who destroyed it for everyone else. They started disrespecting the mods and admin. This began to attract trolls. Eventually the mods all gave up and eventually BGDungeon himself gave up and shut down the forum. Ask Groljach, fable, Sephiroth, RudeDawg or kiwidoc about their BGDungeon experiences.

Now you see why we're so concerned about respect for moderators and authority positions here. Moderating is NOT easy work - it involves long hours, and you don't get to choose if you are in the mood to mod or not - it's 24/7, especially in a forum this large. I'm quite certain that we've all earned some respect through our actions. ;) I'd hate to think that I'm being respected just because I have the word "Moderator" under my name.

What do you think would happen at IW if people decided not to respect Ziroc and the moderators and started insulting/arguing with us when they didn’t agree with what we did? Trolls attract trolls. Think it would still be a fun, safe place? We'd have another BGDungeon on our hands.

I know we're nowhere NEAR the BGDungeon culture - this is the friendliest, most laid-back, most mutually respectful community of its size that I've EVER seen on the internet - and it's important that we keep it that way - ALL of us TOGETHER.

I hope you all understand. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


Anyone remember a forum called BGDungeon? Some of you may even be refugees from that forum. BGDungeon was massive – about 10,000 members. It crashed and burned about a year ago because of this very problem – abuse and disrespect of authority by a small group of people who destroyed it for everyone else. They started disrespecting the mods and admin. This began to attract trolls. Eventually the mods all gave up and eventually BGDungeon himself gave up and shut down the forum. Ask Groljach, fable, Sephiroth, RudeDawg or kiwidoc about their BGDungeon experiences.

<hr></blockquote>

*copy/pastes the thing he posted earlier at the HADB board*

*Nods in agreement*
Even worse, BGDungeon had about 15000 (!) members at the time of the deletion. It completely got out of hand because the webmaster stopped caring about his own site, lost interest in it, not sure what, but he didn't make 1 single post since September 2000 (BGDungeon went down in March 2001, figures...)
There were only 4 mods for a board with 15000 members, at least a couple of hundred regulars posting every day. One of these mods was hardly around due to illnesses, so that leaves only three... Only the admin was able to ban people, and since he was never around in the first place, bans always took several days. In February and March half the forum was nothing more but a playground for hordes of trolls, just imagine the worst troll you've ever had at Ironworks but then 15 of them. And hardly anything the mods were able to do about it aside deleting all of the trolls' posts... As you can see, a lack of rules and respect only spawns more trolls.
There may have been other reasons for closing down aside from all the trolls (mainly on a financial level), but note that BGDungeon was an behemoth completely gotten out of control...
Be glad there are rules and that there are staff members upholding those rules, bending them a little or being fair if the situation asks for it. And you think Ziroc is a little too strict? Ha! You have seen nothing yet... Just trust me when I say that you should be glad to have Ziroc, and not one of those real tirants, admins deleting any reference to other boards because they're afraid of losing traffic, banning members because they disagree (note: not flame, but disagree) with that same admin... It happens. Trust me.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Grojlach:


*copy/pastes the thing he posted earlier at the HADB board*

*Nods in agreement*
Even worse, BGDungeon had about 15000 (!) members at the time of the deletion. It completely got out of hand because the webmaster stopped caring about his own site, lost interest in it, not sure what, but he didn't make 1 single post since September 2000 (BGDungeon went down in March 2001, figures...)
There were only 4 mods for a board with 15000 members, at least a couple of hundred regulars posting every day. One of these mods was hardly around due to illnesses, so that leaves only three... Only the admin was able to ban people, and since he was never around in the first place, bans always took several days. In February and March half the forum was nothing more but a playground for hordes of trolls, just imagine the worst troll you've ever had at Ironworks but then 15 of them. And hardly anything the mods were able to do about it aside deleting all of the trolls' posts... As you can see, a lack of rules and respect only spawns more trolls.
There may have been other reasons for closing down aside from all the trolls (mainly on a financial level), but note that BGDungeon was an behemoth completely gotten out of control...
Be glad there are rules and that there are staff members upholding those rules, bending them a little or being fair if the situation asks for it. And you think Ziroc is a little too strict? Ha! You have seen nothing yet... Just trust me when I say that you should be glad to have Ziroc, and not one of those real tirants, admins deleting any reference to other boards because they're afraid of losing traffic, banning members because they disagree (note: not flame, but disagree) with that same admin... It happens. Trust me.<hr></blockquote>

Thank you for saying that, Grojlach...it bears so much more weight coming from a veteran of that board. [img]smile.gif[/img] We have less than 7000 members here, and only about 5-10% of them are active participants at General Discussions (and that may be a liberal estimate). I've wanted for some time to do a mini-"census" on the board to find out how many people there are who regularly post to General Discussions. Hm, I may do that yet.

Ironworks is ultimately more manageable, obviously, than was BGDungeon...sad thing is, BGDungeon's fate was ultimately avoidable. We did get a lot of BGDungeon refugees in April and May of last year; some of them our best members now. [img]smile.gif[/img] We want to make sure that history does not repeat itself here, and that Ironworks remains as a bastion of friendly forums.

Cheers,

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


I want to share a story with you guys. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Anyone remember a forum called BGDungeon? Some of you may even be refugees from that forum. BGDungeon was massive – about 10,000 members. It crashed and burned about a year ago because of this very problem – abuse and disrespect of authority by a small group of people who destroyed it for everyone else. They started disrespecting the mods and admin. This began to attract trolls. Eventually the mods all gave up and eventually BGDungeon himself gave up and shut down the forum. Ask Groljach, fable, Sephiroth, RudeDawg or kiwidoc about their BGDungeon experiences.

Now you see why we're so concerned about respect for moderators and authority positions here. Moderating is NOT easy work - it involves long hours, and you don't get to choose if you are in the mood to mod or not - it's 24/7, especially in a forum this large. I'm quite certain that we've all earned some respect through our actions. ;) I'd hate to think that I'm being respected just because I have the word "Moderator" under my name.

What do you think would happen at IW if people decided not to respect Ziroc and the moderators and started insulting/arguing with us when they didn’t agree with what we did? Trolls attract trolls. Think it would still be a fun, safe place? We'd have another BGDungeon on our hands.

I know we're nowhere NEAR the BGDungeon culture - this is the friendliest, most laid-back, most mutually respectful community of its size that I've EVER seen on the internet - and it's important that we keep it that way - ALL of us TOGETHER.

I hope you all understand. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Memnoch ]<hr></blockquote>

Yep things really began going bad in November, and then soon after the mods gave up on the forum, many members (including myself)bailed out and headed to other forums, one day I decided to return and I found out that it had been closed down. All this started with only a handful of individuals (I dont remember their names) but as Memnoch says trolls soon heard about the problems and they turned the tiny scratch into a huge gaping wound, I doubt this will ever happen here as we have a family like community here, and dedicated mods who make sure that it will NOT happen either. Think of Ironworks without the mods, and then you will truly realise how much the board needs them. Respect them because they deserve it.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:

We did get a lot of BGDungeon refugees in April and May of last year; some of them our best members now. [img]smile.gif[/img]
<hr></blockquote>

*Bows* thank you thank you :D

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
[QB]
Is this what a Moderator's Neutrality means?[QB]<hr></blockquote>


for ME, it was more like being a politician, but without the professional lying part-- Don't take sides, treat everyone as equals. Stay away from 'hot' topics when possible and stuff.. just remember to be fair. That is what I've tried to do.. Heck, when I first started to run the forum, I didn't want people to know TOO much about me, about my likes and dislikes because of what you were talking about. But I decided to share lots with you all, we all became good friends and stuff.

Neutrality can sometimes force you to keep quiet too, but that can be a good thing SOMETIMES.. ;) Now that is how I used to be, I HAVE opened up more though--as some will recall in the War forum.. It's hard.. and I'm the type that tries to please everyone, but I learned that there is no way I could. (I still try though) :D

I think what got Ironworks 'going' and keeps it going is the friendly atmosphere. The Mods and I will answer most all questions/emails.. If someone has a problem logging in, I will be very friendly and personal with them--not 'corporate-like'.. you know how corporate type sites are.. That is something I will never do. I've seen so many small companies that became big because of BEING 'personal' and going the extra mile for people, but then they got huge, and totally went 'cold' and totally lost the company..

Ironworks will never act 'corporate'. My website and forum will always remain a place to hang out, chill and enjoy. when you email me, you'll usually always get an answer, and soon! I don't know how many times I've gotten an email question, and I replied right away, and they replied back SHOCKED--saying 'Wow, I have never had such a quick response to an email with my questions answered ect..'. THIS is what makes a website something special. going the extra mile for ANYONE, and make them feel at home, with friends--that's Ironworks to me.

You don't even wanna know how many companies wanted to host me.. I've turned them all down.. all they wanted to do was 'use' Ironworks to fill their pockets with $$$, and you all would have had pop-up banners, java popups, banners, flash banners.. all that crap. I'm just not going to sell out like that.

I DID have a simple 1 banner item at the top of the website pages, but geez, have you SEEN sites like Gamespot? they have like 5 Ad's on each page, and then some in the middle of a review.. and these 'new' ad's that are like flash transparencies that you cannot avoid. they cover the page you're looking at.. totally sellout. I know they need the $$ to keep the site and bandwidth going.. but there comes a point when the site becomes about MONEY and not about the PASSION of it.. it's sad too.. I've seen SO many sites die because of this.. Gamecenter, Daily Radar.. and others. :(

[ 02-07-2002: Message edited by: Ziroc ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rikard_OHF:

Bah It's not like you didn;t do it before
And besides
You can always be some part of K&Z [img]smile.gif[/img]

--------------

Off-topic
Ehm LarrydaLoon...
What have you been drinking [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Rikard_OHF ]<hr></blockquote>


Rikard, you need to email me asap with which account you want to keep. You know the rules old boy, 1 account per user.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:

Worst case? Ziroc could be slapped with a lawsuit for providing material inappropriate to a minor.
<hr></blockquote>


Na, I can't be held responsible, remember, when you agree to the rules, this little paragraph protects me fully:

----------------
In Closing:
Although the administrators and moderators of the Ironworks Gaming Forum will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and the operators of Ironworks Gaming will not be held responsible for the content of any message. By clicking the Agree button, you agree that you will not post any messages that are, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violate of any laws. The Ironworks Webmaster has the right to remove, Edit, Move or close any thread for any reason.
-------------

But it doesn't mean I would get a nasty-gram. :D , So I usually nuke the user that did it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

"Respect the mods?" Heck, I adulate them. Wonderful job, all, great forum, Ziroc.