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Your reasoning is just not logical. You assume that there was first a word, and its meaning got invented later. Of course, it's the other way round. The reason why a word like 'shit' can be used offensively and is often thought insulting, is because SHIT MEANS HUMAN OR ANIMAL FAECES. *smiles* It's as simple as that. If you call someone "you little shit" you are in fact comparing them to a REAL piece of shit. Now, since shit is considered unpleasant by most people (I can't believe I'm having to explain this! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/rolleyes.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif), it would be only logical to conclude that they won't like being compared to it. Take the word ■■■■. In most modern cultures, fuc... I mean "making love", whatever you want to call it, is still considered taboo, in that you wouldn't openly discuss it with anybody (your grandparents or parents for example) and in that it isn't considered normal (for most people, heh.) to do it publicly and in the open. Therefore, the same goes as for 'shit' - people associate the word with all its connotations, even if you use it meaning something other than 'having sex'. I'm sure I don't have to explain c*** to you, now do I? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif Same principle, really. ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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EDIT: COOL! Mel and I posted similarly at the same time! Great minds! But you worded yours better. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ http://home-3.12move.nl/~se021070/dragon2.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif Alureth...Dragon friend of Breanna, Mage and Advisor in the Court of Lady Lioness Co-Owner/Operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan. Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force Sublime Sister of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever! Second Historian and Scribe of IW. Mother Hen of IW. Mage extraordinair, Pin-Up Girl for the OLD-COOTS Magey-Wagey: performer in the Nekked Dancing Trio of the ORT. Hopeless Romantic *sigh* [This message has been edited by DragonMage (edited 10-23-2001).] |
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If I heard a twelve year old say "■■■■", I'd think he was either trying to be cool, or that his parents did not instill in him that there are certain words you don't use in public. I think it would be as wrong as seeing him smoking a cigarette, and chugging a beer. He's not mature enough to make this kind of decision. He doesn't know the effects it will have on his life, or what kind of image he might get. People can curse and have fun with it, but you have to know when it's acceptable. Imagine, straight out of college(F.U. I would assume), he goes for a job interview, "look dude, I really need this f**king job, man!" Asked to give the eulogy at Uncle Joe's funeral, "he was the best motherf**ker I ever knew." Sunday after church(I know Christians who curse like sailors when they are off "holy ground"), "pastor that was the best g*dd*mn sermon I ever heard! Made this grown motherf**ker cry!" These are funny(?), extreme examples, but I know people who don't know when to "turn it off" and it has cost them. One guy lost a nice promotion because, to him, they were just words, and "no one thinks like that anymore". The problem is, people think he's funny(and he really can be), but no one want's him to represent them. I told him, and he still doesn't believe that's the reason, but it was. They are just words. The entire language is a bunch of words we put together in different ways, but, as with everything else in this world, you should think before you curse. "There's a time and a place for everything." ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/rb.gif http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif [This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-23-2001).] |
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Oh well, at least we've showed that Great Minds think alike http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/338.gif ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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I was wanting to post sooner, but had to wait until I found the reference I was seeking on this. Barbara Lawrence, an English professor, wrote on this subject in an article many years ago entitled "Four-Letter Words Can Hurt You." It has since become one of the most-studied essays. I myself remember studying it in Senior English in High School. Here is a passage from the work: "Making love is a beautiful way of describing sex; however, many will argue that it is not always accurate. In a situation where making love is inappropriate, f--- is not always accurate either. F--- is not commonly accepted as an appropriate verb to describe sex. Yet among many of the younger generation f--- is the most common way to describe the act of sex. Why is it inappropriate? F--- comes from the German word ficken meaning 'to strike,' associated with the Latin word fustis, 'a staff or cudgel,' in combination with the Celtic word buc meaning 'a point, hence to pierce.' Strike and pierce are not pleasant; in fact they are violent, even brutal words that are used in disguise with the word f---. These words make sex seem worthless, violent, painful, and derogatory, instead of what it is really supposed to be to people sharing themselves with each other, for pleasure or love depending on the situation. The word that I find most offensive is screw. It comes from words meaning 'groove, nut, ditch, breeding sow, and swelling." Dr. Lawrence goes on to argue that obscene language is dangerous not only because of its sadistic origins, but also because of its mechanistic functions. Flaying the tabooed words for what they really are, she tries to educate the reader to choose their words more carefully. Dr. Lawrence questions why some words are acceptable to society while others, supposedly with the same meaning, are tabooed. "Four Letter Words Can Hurt You" responds that this question can no longer be answered simply because of "sexual hangups" or "class oppression." With their brutal and sadistic origins, the tabooed words have evolved over the years to reduce the act of intercourse and the parts involved to inhuman mechanics and instruments of those mechanics. When you strip away the identity or the human factor involved, you have reduced that person to inanimate object. This, Lawrence suggests, is the real reason these words are obscene. Lawrence then argues that these "dehumanizing descriptives" are particularly damaging to all forms of sexual intimacy. For they not only damage our vision of women by figuratively reducing them to a "skirt" or a "piece," but also encourage men to be consistently self-involved. If you haven't had a chance to read this essay in its entirety, I would recommend it...it's an excellent read, and a definite eye-opener, when you consider the origins of some of those words. It's a fairly popular essay, one that you can probably find in many college-level anthologies on expository writing. Cheers, ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/saz1.gif Patience, my BUTT...I'm going to KILL something!!! |
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Oh, and as far as I know, 'ain't' is not meaningless, it is a verbform that means the same as 'am not'. What you mean is that it's grammatically incorrect, but hey, take a look around on the Internet - what isn't? """ is that what your talking about? it seams to me that you gave an example of explicit words being used in a bad way. you also mentiond that ain't is not meaningless, but I don't see an actual reson for why a cuss word is a cuss word. "Your reasoning is just not logical. You assume that there was first a word" no I was saying that it couldn't have been something like that. so I was asking how it was. "SHIT MEANS HUMAN OR ANIMAL FAECES. *smiles* It's as simple as that. If you call someone "you little shit" you are in fact comparing them to a REAL piece of shit" yes I don't have a problem understanding the fact that if you call some one "a little shit" it means yuo think that they are a shit. check this out faeces (or feces as it's also know as) means the same thing as crap or poopoo so why is shit targeted as bad and not the rest. or if you called some one a poop(yes I looked this up)you're calling them stupid. so why isn't poop blip out if said on tv? although what you state does make a lot of sence...I can't help but be curious of why shit and not poop is bad. ------------------ http://publish.hometown.aol.com/tobb...s/clawsfin.gif Drake A.K.A. bocaj A.K.A MR.Drake the HADB thug and keeper of Neil http://www.contrabandent.com/pez1/up...d/vambunny.gif |
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------------------ http://publish.hometown.aol.com/tobb...s/clawsfin.gif Drake A.K.A. bocaj A.K.A MR.Drake the HADB thug and keeper of Neil http://www.contrabandent.com/pez1/up...d/vambunny.gif |
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------------------ http://publish.hometown.aol.com/tobb...s/clawsfin.gif Drake A.K.A. bocaj A.K.A MR.Drake the HADB thug and keeper of Neil http://www.contrabandent.com/pez1/up...d/vambunny.gif |
lalalallalalalalalalalalalalalalalala thats all im really hearing right now. No offense to you peeps. Seriously man their just words....... nice job on parenting. Honestly when im chillin with my friends im always like swearing and shit. I dont around my parents cause they'll start bitching at me about it. But they dont care as long as i dont say like ■■■■ and other words like that in the house. But seriously i never knew wal-mart sells edited shit. What kind of music u guys like? Also what should i get my girlfriend for her birthday?? She's gonna be 17. Me and her been together for 2 years. Forgot to tell u all, my bday was Nov 4th so late happy birthday heh. Yeh i just turned 17 too. Anyways reply and all thanks.
-Vassili |
Welcome to Ironworks Vassili!
That done, I've got to note that if you are saying you don't understand the issue here, maybe you didn't read the posts above too carefully! ;) Or you may simply never have learned that the words have meanings that are degrading or inappropriate for public use... that seems to be the whole reason for this thread. The idea that such language is now prevalent and many people, not necessarily just from your generation but predominantly it would seem, don't grasp the concept of offensive language being overused. How many of us got sick of hearing the Valley Girl speak " like wow, like you know, like cooool!" ? I feel that way about hearing the word f**k everywhere I go. It's almost annoying because it seems to be the only word in some people's vocabulary! [img]tongue.gif[/img] Oh, Happy Birthday to you and your gf. A gift, huh? Boy that's hard since we don't know her. How about taking her to a concert or dinner or someplace SHE would really like to go? Cloudy |
Or maybe you could take her to a cursing contest?
J/K :D When I was younger, I cursed quite a bit more than I do now. It seemed grown up when I was a teen, and when I was in the Army, it seemed cool. I actually found out it was neither. I do use the occassional swear word, usually when angry, which just means I'm expressing myself in a non expressive way. ;) |
I run a music store, my #1 one complaint is yours in particular. We warn parents if they ask and take cd's back in the cases like yours. Most "edited" cds are barely edited at that.
Blame the labels and the bands for having a "(edited) you" attitude towards concerned parents and mtv and radio for a " kids spend money ( their parent's money) so lets feed them adult entertainment" attitude. We do our best to in my store warn parents, and are armed with a list of acceptable alternatives. ( in your case i'd try sum 41, alien ant farm, or linkin park. No need to edit what aint there, and theses guys are clean and hard rockin!) |
well i am against it too, but sometimes its better than the original version! hehehe
but my mom is linient with this... i mean we should just learn all to just listen and not live the music [img]smile.gif[/img] |
ok. thanks
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<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chewbacca:
I run a music store, my #1 one complaint is yours in particular. We warn parents if they ask and take cd's back in the cases like yours. Most "edited" cds are barely edited at that. Blame the labels and the bands for having a "(edited) you" attitude towards concerned parents and mtv and radio for a " kids spend money ( their parent's money) so lets feed them adult entertainment" attitude. We do our best to in my store warn parents, and are armed with a list of acceptable alternatives. ( in your case i'd try sum 41, alien ant farm, or linkin park. No need to edit what aint there, and theses guys are clean and hard rockin!)<hr></blockquote> I don't think I've heard Sum 41, but he likes Linkin Park and Alien Ant Farm. I agree with you that it's the labels fault. If the song can be edited, then they should do it properly. Don't leave controversial words in it at all. If there is too much profanity to edit, then don't sell an edited version of it. It's not that hard, but it would more than likely cost them money, therefore it's not done. I never agreed with them censoring music in the first place, but they passed the law, not me. They need to do a better job cleaning it up. All I can do is complain. :D |
For me swearing saying ■■■■, shit etc is just another PART of my vocabulary. I often use it to get strong emotions across. You may all think music is going down the hill because of swearing in it (and for a lot of it it is [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) but alot of bands dont use it excessivly in their music just as its another part of their lyrics.
You may think that I am not as intelligent or smart if I resort to using swearing in my posts [img]tongue.gif[/img] But the fact that you are so strongly against it gives you a kind of snobbish image in my eyes (no offense [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) It is simply another word I can say, not all the time. Just like saying that was a bloody good concert, I can say that was a ■■■■■■■ good concert. Its just another word to me and its only offensive and demeaning if you make it so in your eyes. The subject against the female swearing is not what I am against here as I dont like a lot of that either. But saying that movie was ■■■■■■■ excellent just gets my point across in a different way. Why substitute it for a more "intelligent" word when I dont need to or feel that my word is what expresses me better. You make it offensive in your eyes. In my eyes it is not. |
There are arguments for both sides as to whether or not certain vulgar language is becoming common and should not be considered offensive, but I think the original point of this post was whether or not this type of language is appropriate for young children.
I don't think most people would agree that they want to hear shit, bitch, and ■■■■ coming from the mouths of 5 year olds. If you don't, then you can't let them perceive it as being acceptable. |
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mitro Jellywadder:
I don't think I've heard Sum 41, but he likes Linkin Park and Alien Ant Farm. I agree with you that it's the labels fault. If the song can be edited, then they should do it properly. Don't leave controversial words in it at all. If there is too much profanity to edit, then don't sell an edited version of it. It's not that hard, but it would more than likely cost them money, therefore it's not done. I never agreed with them censoring music in the first place, but they passed the law, not me. They need to do a better job cleaning it up. All I can do is complain. :D <hr></blockquote> If he likes Blink, he'll love Sum 41, they make very similiar music, the harshest word on thier Album "all killer, no filler" is bastard. But as you are the rare parent who listens first, you can see for yourself. Feel lucky he doesnt like Eminem. We barely broke even from all the returns of "edited" cd's by that artist. And a record label spending extra money on something besides champagne breakfasts? I'd be shocked! ;) A fine example of label mentality: they only profit from 20% of the acts they promote, they lose money on 80% of the product they make. Cd's cost so much because they waste countless money on bands that never break! The real sad part is they suck up indie labels as they grow big and subject them to this wasteful business practice. 90% of all published music is made by only four companies! I love my job, but the music biz makes me sick if I dwell on it to much... BTW there is no law forcing labels to rate thier music. They agreed to voluntarily in order to avoid any such leglislation. It is a self-policed industry. |
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Chewbacca:
BTW there is no law forcing labels to rate thier music. They agreed to voluntarily in order to avoid any such leglislation. It is a self-policed industry.<hr></blockquote> Ahhh...so that's why it doesn't work. ;) |
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AzureWolf:
You may think that I am not as intelligent or smart if I resort to using swearing in my posts [img]tongue.gif[/img] But the fact that you are so strongly against it gives you a kind of snobbish image in my eyes (no offense [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) <hr></blockquote> None taken. ;) I don't recall ever mentioning intelligence with anyones use of profanity. As for snobbish, if you knew me you would know that is far from the truth. (If that wasn't meant for me, then disregard everything in this paragraph except the None taken. ;) ) [img]smile.gif[/img] My point was an 'edited' CD should not contain profanity. I use profanity, but not around my children. Edit: To modify or adapt so as to make suitable or acceptable: edited her remarks for presentation to a younger audience That's out of the dictionary. I think it applies. Btw, Who dug this post out of the grave? :D |
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mitro Jellywadder:
Btw, Who dug this post out of the grave? :D <hr></blockquote> Vassili did. How odd. I think it's bizzare (in a good way) how a thread can just reappear and continue like that. I'd been reading it as if it had flowed non stop, yet it has a gap of weeks... |
A thought though, the songs we're talking about - even if they were fully edited would often be of dubious subject matter for a 'young un' wouldn't they?
I've written a song which includes 1 swear word in 'context' i.e. using the vernacular of the (general) type of person the song is about. the song itself is actually a dig at a certain type of lifestyle (discression here just in case). meaning: a positive song with a swear word can be less detrimental than a negative song with no swear words. i think if you want to protect children, the message, context and subtext all need to be taken into account as well. eg: if blink 182 sang "i, wanna 'make love' to a dog in the 'bottom'" it is only slightly less offensive than the real lyrics... |
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Leonis:
eg: if blink 182 sang "i, wanna 'make love' to a dog in the 'bottom'" it is only slightly less offensive than the real lyrics...<hr></blockquote> Wow..I haven't heard that one, or I missed those lyrics. Hope he did too. I agree with you there about the lyrics. At least now that I have a burner, I can make him a cd to listen to and screen everything that goes on it. |
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mitro Jellywadder:
Wow..I haven't heard that one, or I missed those lyrics. Hope he did too. I agree with you there about the lyrics. At least now that I have a burner, I can make him a cd to listen to and screen everything that goes on it.<hr></blockquote> good idea! i think it's fantastic the interest and concern you're showing him and his interests. instead of blanket banning whatever you disagree with (therefore encouraging disent) you are teaching and nurturing him while being protective. it must be so hard though, finding appropriate music that isn't 'kids' music. there is so much useless and or negative drivel out there, all too often wrapped in good music... |
i like punk, rap ,rock, some metal. Fav bands greenday, sum 41, blink 182, guttermouth, new found glory, disturbed, metallica, limpbizkit, linkin park, static x, insane clown posse, twizted, goldfinger, alien ant farm, papa roach, fenix tx, offspring. Fav rappers, eminem, 2 pac, snoop dogg, dr dre, dmx, all i can think of right now. Oh yeh few other bands. korn, slipknot, mudvayne, lit, system of a down, godsmack, cypress hill, blood hound gang, bestie boys, rage against the machine. That is all i can think of.
-Vassili |
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