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------------------ Lord Raptor's Site http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif Ironworks Dark General BG2 Tavern Keeper King of Pointlessness |
Sheesh - relax! OK, so you didn't mean ignored. Then I still would like to know if you meant to say this:
"So what you're saying is that if people REALLY tried, all negative emotions can be dealt with, and that if they can't make that work, it is essentially a failure on their part, a lack of strength of will? Or am I misunderstanding?" ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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so how can a child shrug off "abuse" ? is it fair? no but i am not discussion "fairness" here when this child grow up, she probally view this world as a angerous place, feeling extremely insecure, will not trust in oppositte gender memebers, or not have a healthy relationship, or experiencing social difficulties either way, she is hold on to the past, she IS letting the past continuely dominate her life. she has been abused, and she IS still being abused, and she WILL be abused if she does not acknowledge the problem, face the brutal truth, hurtful past got my meaning? all those she can do to make changes, is her CHOICE |
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------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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how do you think the experience hurt them so bad? day by day, they live in misery of their own, and the longer that pain hurts them the harder to be ready actually, I am saying "they are not ready" is just to offer some comfort to whoever may view this now here is the brutal truth you will NEVER be ready the time to be ready is NOW take action NOW choose to face your problems NOW choose to go back to that dark place of your memory NOW face whoever is hurting you, NOW "not ready" is an excuse, I apologize for not giving that bit of truth |
I agree with Mel. Let's see YOU lose a child and just "make a positive choice", eh?
------------------ Lord Raptor's Site http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif Ironworks Dark General BG2 Tavern Keeper King of Pointlessness |
Originall posted by 250 (alot of them anyway) http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
so what does that has to do with our topic? ahhh, i see, you are trying to prove "not everything is controlable" http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif well, i like debates since it gives me a good insight on things i never quite thought of before. you have points i have never truly thought off and i thank you for that... your a good debater since i last debated with Yorick (and that was a long time ago ) we cannot ignore the EFFECT and what experiences an incident cause to people when we talk about incident that baby died, so this incident means virtually nothing to him then we need to discuss what impact the child's death has? well... shall we continue? ??? i dont get it??? you view the world through the colored glass of your experience. if that glass is suspcious, then the world is a dangerous place. if that glass is naive, then the world is a trusting place. if that glass is impatience, then the world is a frustrating place. if that glass is anger, then the world is a hurtful place im begining to understand you now about this one http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif events only affect your feelings your feelings in turn change your personality, your view of the world which leads to changes in decision making in the future which affect your way of life (fate) good logic !! but i cant seem to relate it with what you have said regarding my latest example, enlighten me if you will... hacker rule number 1: if someone can do it, I can do it TRUE !!! TRUE !!!http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath... |
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he was sent to Nazi concentration camp for 20 years they murdered his wife, parents, children he was told when to sleep he was told when to sit he was told when to eat he was told if he can live or die you know what he discovered in the camp? he discovered that no matter how he is tormented, his captors CANNOT force his feelings to his condition he wanted so much to share with the world this discovery, that he knew if he died in the prison, his life would be a waste, nothing. therefore came the commitement for survival, and he lived through hell well, what can be worse? WHAT can be too hard to deal with? Melsuine, I know you are probally hurt, a lot. you are just like that friend of mine. she was hurt, badly, and she was not reacting truthfully to her past, not facing them, not acknowledging them. and her raction had hurt me REALLY bad you understand what I am saying here? I know how it is to live a hurtful life |
Originally quote by Lord Shield
I agree with Mel. Let's see YOU lose a child and just "make a positive choice", eh? i think that 250 meant in positive choice is not be happy or celerating over a child's death (especially yours) i think he means that positive choice is where you gather up your strength, get over your depressions (after a while, not right away) and live and not be depressed forever or you could help dontate money or make an institute about the disease on what killed your child... is that it 250? ------------------ Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath... |
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I find it incredibly offensive you assume to have that kind of knowledge about me. As a matter of fact, you're wrong, too. Why can't I disagree with people without others making semi-psychological comments about me? (sorry, you're the second one today). I am just someone who ultimately believes in helping others, even if they might not deserve it, and I fervently disagree with a worldview that states everybody is responsible for the outcome of their lives. That is all. No need to assume that this opinion is fueled from personal experiences. ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art [This message has been edited by Melusine (edited 10-06-2001).] |
Dr Waco had exceptionally strong character - would he have been so if his whole life was a string of horrific events? How can you equate this to EVERYBODY
Some people require more help than others - simple fact ------------------ Lord Raptor's Site http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif Ironworks Dark General BG2 Tavern Keeper King of Pointlessness |
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"If I am better looking person.. I would..." well, if you are better looking person, your personality could be dramatically different. hell, your morality could be different too! "If I had more money..." well, IF you had more money, who knows what you might have done with them? again, meaningless assumption "If I had a child, and he died..." well, I never had a child, and I never known what it is like to have one, what does that mean? so you are saying I will not make positive choices? well, why don't you assume I will make one? you are just choosing the side which favors your argument having a child is NOT WHO I AM, it is NOT part of my experience. how can you base an argument on that? I would say I will make positive chocies, you would say I will not, so what? then look at a mother who DID have a child and lose that child to the accident well, truth be told she could live in miserable the rest of her life, so that the accident not only killed her child, but also killed her, and possibly her entire family was it worth? or, she can choose to a contructive way of live choose to educate her other children, protect them from possible harm choose other social actions to prevent similar problems what OTHER choices do you have? name it you have only the above two choices, live or die you are hurt, VERY badly, but you are still alive. if you dont choose wisely, you die. and possibly kill your LOVED ones too |
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You accuse him of bringing something into the argument which isn't true - the hypothesis about you losing a child is invalid, as you don't have one. I agree. However, you are doing precisely the same by making statements about the position of the mother of the child. Like you so rightly said, you don't have a child, you can't play the what if game because it isn't based on truth. Why then, do you keep mentioning examples of things you haven't experienced yourself? Following your own line of thought, such examples are meaningless as you can't know what they entail without experiencing them yourself. ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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Dr Waco has a strong character? SAYS WHO? he is born strong? well, FIND ME A BABY that is born with strong will tell you what, character is like a sword. it is FORGED, not grown on the plantation natually. |
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------------------ Lord Raptor's Site http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif Ironworks Dark General BG2 Tavern Keeper King of Pointlessness |
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------------------ Lord Raptor's Site http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif Ironworks Dark General BG2 Tavern Keeper King of Pointlessness |
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------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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so far, none of you have really challenged my opinion yet which is: WHO is in control of his experience? WHO is accountable for his life? There is no reality, only perception You create your own experience, which in turn make you who you are |
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what you are doing is like cutting a word from a paragraph, out of conext |
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a string of horrific incident could make him strong, or kill him the same situation that raised him can make a loser out of someone else so what does that mean? events are just events, it is the choices of each individual matters |
You present us with two options, but a. I cannot accpet the grounds on which you decide about the two options and b. you present one option as being weak, and to be overcome, and the other as right. Whereas it isn't always a matter of right or wrong, of choice.
------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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Nobody can control their experiences. You get hit by a car, you can't control that Who is accountable? Why should anybody decide that? A manager is accountable but managers have training. Not everybody can be accountable for their lives You control your experience? Really - sounds quite a closeted view - so when I heard on the radio that the IRA blew up my Dad's train some years ago, did I control that experience? Nope - fortunately it turned out he'd missed the train If by control, you mean AFTERWARDS (as I think you have been) this depends on the character. I always end up turning thigs around - that's me - then again, I was raised with supportive parents and did a lot ofmartial training which disciplined my will. Does everybody have that advantage? ------------------ Lord Raptor's Site http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif Ironworks Dark General BG2 Tavern Keeper King of Pointlessness |
Originally posted by Melusine:
Please, PLEASE don't you dare make assumptions about my feelings/state of mind! I find it incredibly offensive you assume to have that kind of knowledge about me. methinks that making presumptions (im talking to you 250) (even though it sounds logical in your point of view) is like telling a person you know him/her when you dont know him/her at all and your like telling them what YOU think they are... observe politeness and let us not get carried away here.. besides, this thread is wwwwwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy off topic by now http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif not that i do mind that one bit. Origianlly posted by 250 you totally got my point. very nice debating with you, it has been an enjoyable experience the pleasure is for the both of us... BUT (since im not yet completly satified) when you said earlier : "we cannot ignore the EFFECT and what experiences an incident cause to people when we talk about incident that baby died, so this incident means virtually nothing to him then we need to discuss what impact the child's death has? well... shall we continue? the child nor the mother is RESPONSIBLE for the death of the child, therefore how can there be control in the first place in this situation? ------------------ Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath... |
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fool proof way? you call "reasoning" "being rational" "face hurtful feelings" fool proof? well, what I did so far was presenting my opinion. obviously it "offended" you. you told me I was being insulting after all, and I am naive... well, funny, because until the third page of the debate, all you did was subtly attacking me I don't care but you really should consider challenging my opinion instead of throwing insulting words everyonce a while |
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Where did I say you offended me?? I am not offended at all, I just disagree! The only thing that you said that offended me was when you started to make assumptions about me on a personal level. I found that presumptious and uncalled for. How in the world did I "subtly attack you"?? Where did I throw insulting words around? I am just voicing my opinion. EDIT: just a spelling mistake... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art [This message has been edited by Melusine (edited 10-06-2001).] |
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Then at your assumption that she is only defending her side of the argument because of hurt in HER life, which you know nothing about ------------------ Lord Raptor's Site http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif Ironworks Dark General BG2 Tavern Keeper King of Pointlessness [This message has been edited by Lord Shield (edited 10-06-2001).] |
damn lag http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif im way behind the argument now http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif
<QUOTE> Of course, that is obvious, Harkoliar. Doh, I know he's not meaning to say we should celebrate sad events, but accept them and deal with them. That is perfectly clear to me. My disagreement in this is that I don't think everybody can deal with every situation and emerge a better person. I don't think the foolproof way of living a happy life is to choose to live one (though a positive approach is certainly helpful) because of circumstances that we cannot imagine (because we haven't experienced them ourselves). </QUOTE> i agree with you on that Melusine... while 250 says (on what i understood so far) that positive attitude about a certain event will help change yourself to a positive effect, you say that there is not full proof way you will act positively since in the first place you havent experienced the pain or the sadness of the event therefore you cant exactly CHOOSE to be positive in that event... right?? ps: off-topic, if your wasting precious seconds typing my full name, Hark or Har will do fine http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath... [This message has been edited by Harkoliar (edited 10-06-2001).] |
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(I do agree that a positive stance can make all the difference, I didn't agree that you can always choose to find a way out, because sometimes there isn't one) LOL - I was going to ask you about Hark - but in Dutch, it denotes a certain gardening tool...hehe, Har it is then http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gifhttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art [This message has been edited by Melusine (edited 10-06-2001).] |
Harkoliar, hmm, to clear my opinions here
I am more focusing on how live people should react to events, other than predict, or control in your case, what events come to their lives next by controlling thoughts, feelings, we control who we are, we make who we are, and we are where we are by that choice a disastor can mean an opportunity at the same time. go back to the beggars: there could be many reasons why they are poor. a fire burnt his house, but it is how he reacted to that problem guided his life after that fateful event. (I am being overly simplistic here, but if you look carefully, it is true) you trust some blindly, and he cheated all your money away. why did you trust him in the first place? how did he get your bank account number? and even after that, you can choose to feel hurt the rest of your life, or you can choose to learn your child died from an accident: choose to live in depression the rest of your life. or choose to let go that feeling and make your own life better you were picked on pretty badly in childhood because you were talented, and you think you are not worthy, well. you choose to believe you are not worthy, you choose to believe you deserved being picked on, you choose not to see the truth of those bad people you are intelligent, and is among the tiny portion of the population. you can choose to feel lonely, and choose to feel being insulted when people express their disbelief in your intelligence. or you can choose to use your brain constructively to create happiness you are born with disablity, that is an easy example, no need to discuss here. I have a web page made by a child who could not walk, with only one hand, cannot talk... I can feel her attitude of life just by reading what she wrote... tears wet my eyes you are born ugly... com'on, time to celebrate you are alive, healthy and has a family! you are a stuter, well, choose to stay home then, choose to not interact with people, choose to shut yourself off, choose to .... you are preganant after a night with your boyfriend... wise choice how you deal with that? still, your life in your hand to make, CHOOSE! you are divoced. did you observe the potental problems in marriage? have you being too weak to stand up and say "NO!" to your relationship? you are having problems with your parents. did you not ignore them for 30 years? did you not spend every weekend in your office instead of going to their house and see them? did you actually know your mother injured her back after falling from the stairs? did you actually know it was your fault because you told her the week before you would fix the stairs? your child hates you. well, where were you when they heard your promise to play baseball with them? did you know your son has a football game on friday? did you know your daughter was going out with 3 guys? by whose choices you are where you are? YOU |
again, Mel, where are you when I presented my opinions? challenge them instead of what kind person I am
well, good luck |
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Again, where did I challenge what kind of person you are? What have I been doing for the last friggin half hour then? I thought I *was* defending my own opinions against yours....but that must have been just me then http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/rolleyes.gif ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
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you have not given me one example that can possibly outweight the burden he had endured and went through, so what situation is "no way" out? hmm? |
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this is exactly what I am talking about here, this VERY post of yours is wasting both your and my energy, because it is not directed to my opinion. if you really have the guts, then ignore THIS post and get on to the business |
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*curses* jeeses!! How can you even pretend to know about that sort of extreme situations??? Have you ever experienced something like that??? No? Then why do you presume you KNOW what they are about??? You know why Dr Waco is still known?? Because he is one of the few who managed to survive that kind of thing, but NOT through choice! The people who just gave up after going through similar experiences aren't going to get glorified, but that doesn't mean they never existed! And it CERTAINLY doesn't mean they didn't make it through weakness of character or making the wrong choices. Don't you think it typical human arrogance to assert that a human being can conquer all? That's just not true - I wish it were so. ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
Origianlly Posted by Melusine
Yes, that was exactly what I was trying to say, thanks for paraphrasing it better! (I do agree that a positive stance can make all the difference, I didn't agree that you can always choose to find a way out, because sometimes there isn't one) no prob! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif LOL - I was going to ask you about Hark - but in Dutch, it denotes a certain gardening tool...hehe, Har it is then Hardy Har Har http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif didnt know that Hark is just a tool http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif,thanks for that 2c... to ALL , as much fun as it is now debating with all of you guys right now, i feel that its wwwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyy past my bedtime and im really sleepy. my original post is long gone and i think i should start anew with that kind of topic and change this title of the thread http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif to Lord Shield, Neb, Melusine and 250, thanks for this interesting debate, i will come back later ,8 hrs from now, to check on the progress of this debate (if you guys are still up to it by then. hehe!). as i said earlier, i dont mind a debate among you guys, i just want to make sure that it doesnt go into a full-rage debating match, so lets just keep it "civilized" or "polite" PLEASE? . gudnyt http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ps: one last post http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif Originally posted by 250 Harkoliar, hmm, to clear my opinions here I am more focusing on how live people should react to events, other than predict, or control in your case, what events come to their lives next by controlling thoughts, feelings, we control who we are, we make who we are, and we are where we are by that choice a disastor can mean an opportunity at the same time. go back to the beggars: there could be many reasons why they are poor. a fire burnt his house, but it is how he reacted to that problem guided his life after that fateful event. (I am being overly simplistic here, but if you look carefully, it is true) you trust some blindly, and he cheated all your money away. why did you trust him in the first place? how did he get your bank account number? and even after that, you can choose to feel hurt the rest of your life, or you can choose to learn your child died from an accident: choose to live in depression the rest of your life. or choose to let go that feeling and make your own life better you were picked on pretty badly in childhood because you were talented, and you think you are not worthy, well. you choose to believe you are not worthy, you choose to believe you deserved being picked on, you choose not to see the truth of those bad people you are intelligent, and is among the tiny portion of the population. you can choose to feel lonely, and choose to feel being insulted when people express their disbelief in your intelligence. or you can choose to use your brain constructively to create happiness you are born with disablity, that is an easy example, no need to discuss here. I have a web page made by a child who could not walk, with only one hand, cannot talk... I can feel her attitude of life just by reading what she wrote... tears wet my eyes you are born ugly... com'on, time to celebrate you are alive, healthy and has a family! you are a stuter, well, choose to stay home then, choose to not interact with people, choose to shut yourself off, choose to .... you are preganant after a night with your boyfriend... wise choice how you deal with that? still, your life in your hand to make, CHOOSE! you are divoced. did you observe the potental problems in marriage? have you being too weak to stand up and say "NO!" to your relationship? you are having problems with your parents. did you not ignore them for 30 years? did you not spend every weekend in your office instead of going to their house and see them? did you actually know your mother injured her back after falling from the stairs? did you actually know it was your fault because you told her the week before you would fix the stairs? your child hates you. well, where were you when they heard your promise to play baseball with them? did you know your son has a football game on friday? did you know your daughter was going out with 3 guys? by whose choices you are where you are? YOU isnt is what i just said where in.. (on what i understood so far) that positive attitude about a certain event will help change yourself to a positive effect what is the difference? from what i have posted? ------------------ Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath... [This message has been edited by Harkoliar (edited 10-06-2001).] |
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I am not the same person as Lord Shield, so if you accuse me of insulting you whereas it actually was Lord Shield, I have every right to point out that gact to you. That's not offending you, if anything, it's the other way round because you falsely accused me. ------------------ Melusine, Sultry Elflet, High Queen of Fluffies, Archbabe of the OHF, LH, HADB and ORT! http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif Your voice is ambrosia Amy Brown Fantasy Art |
250, why not listen to your own advice? I f***ing well did NOT attack your character, nor did Mel, so don't slam US for doing so
And, as I said, Dr Waco was an extreme character. There is no way you could expect EVERYBODY to react the same way he did ------------------ Lord Raptor's Site http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif Ironworks Dark General BG2 Tavern Keeper King of Pointlessness |
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not through choices? how so? you think it is human arrogance that one can conquer all, but I think it is weakness that to accept one cannot control his own life. you think he lived through NOT by choice? well, is it not a common thing for person who lost ALL his loved ones, and being imprisoned, to just finish his life? or give up the hope to live? that very action is a choice. if not, then what is it? acting impusively? well that is a choice too if it was not by his own choice, he lived through, then what was it? luck? well, you see, two people one is Dr Waco, who is extremely determined to surive. live a cautious live, disciplined to control his emotions one is someone random, he gave up his hope to live. just went through day by day. so who has a better CHANCE of survival? when the same chance presents, who would have a better odd to graspe it and possibly escape danger? the one who is determined, who choose to act the way he does. got it? it is by choice he lived through |
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