Ham fisted! check out the U.S.S.R.'s response to Hungury in the 50's.

I am hoping I have not come off as totally ingorant here LOL I am well aware that spying has gone on for years and will continue as long as we all have the need to know what our (and those we protect's) potential enemies are doing.
http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

As far as the reasons behind the tragic loss of a chinese man's life in the process, I agree that "W" should not have gotten "snippy" http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif from the start and that steps should be taken to resolve the matter in a peaceful way with the Chinese Gov't. They are no small power and should not be treated as such by any country that wants or demands their respect.

The same goes for the Chinese in losing a volatile member of their military...perhaps apologies should be made on both sides. Does it matter who says sorry first as long as they "kiss and make up"?

'nuff said for me, I am off to play with graphics for a few.

http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
Moni

I was speaking about events in history and the unfounded attitudes of citizens from other counties. If you don't like it vote for someone differant in the next fascist election, until then deal with it. 1992 my side lost the election, and personaly I wouldn't have pissed on Bill Clinton if he was on fire (it would have been a waste of a good piss), but he was the constitutionaly elected presdent of our nation if it ever would have come to war I'd have gone
because our elected leaders ask. Thats part of the price of being an U.S. citzen.

In my zeal to make a point I believe I made the wrong impression it would not be the pres. making the decision for war it would be congress and that my american bro. & sis. is truely a scarey thought.But as we say in dixie they may be crazy , but they're our crazies.


[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 04-08-2001).]

Yeah, Yeah, bglad to see someone else here who thinks clearly!!
.

Nice to meet you.

Ditto, couldn't have pu it better myself!!

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Feel My Power

Arcane Adept of the OHF, "So let it be written, So let it be done"

Nice to meet you to Grey Mage.
I think Charlie Daniels said it best in his song The Eagles been flying low
"we may have done some fight'n amoungest our selves
but don't you outsiders go stick'n your noses in
just try and lay your hands on a Pittsburg steeler fan"
This is comming from a die hard Dallas cowboys fan we hated Pittsburg cause we whipped our rear-ends in the BIG ONE too many times.

"Old age and trechery beats youth and skill every time"

"if he asks you to go to war, you would have gone. Such is the price of being US citizen"

just ppl like you are making crises around the world. in a totally different apparences but exactly same manner. go to war without thinking if it is worth or right.

I dont know how to translate, but do watch the news around mid-west, east asia. these are the places where most troubles occures in the present day. and the ones causing troubles are the one with national pride and such. dont give me this dude. I dont believe a big nation has ANY "right" or whatsoever to stick his nose into other's business.

spy, fine, for your own safty. but if you get caught, you got say something, you dont just walk away. samething goes to anyone.

also, about "without us, your whole existence would be different" is that what you believe? you believe US actually is a peacemaker walking around the world NOT putting money in its own pocket AND NOT gaining allies by making deals? and then, at same time, using his influence to make peace just simply because peace is the best case for its own cover and peace is the only choice to maintain a measure of control? I admit any country this size such as US will do that, but that doesn't make it right. what happened, happened. however please dont think everyone lives by your grace and such.

Let us not forget the spy case involving Wen Ho Lee, a chinese-american accused of spying at Los Alamos National Laboratory. He was held in custody for 9 months while the US Justice Department investigated the allegations that he spied for the Chinese. He was finally released after the Justice Department could not come up with any 'hard' evidence that Mr. Lee did in fact pass nuclear secrets.

Is it therefore OK for the US to hold 'captive' one of it's own citizens on allegations of spying, but not OK for the Chinese to do the same? The Chinese I believe are acting rational in holding the American spy plane personel in 'custody' until an investigation into the event is done. Who caused the accident is inconsequential. We were caught spying and unfortunately have to pay the consequences of that. It is a risk that is taken!

And to the statements that the US is the worldwide 'police' force that everyone comes running to in times of need. My question is where was the US when the genocide in Rwanda was happening? Did an American soldier ever step foot in Rwanda? NO! The US only takes an interest in foriegn affairs when they have something to gain. So do not sit here and tell us that the US is the almighty protector of the world, when thousands are dying in places like Rwanda.

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http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif
It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant,
than open it and remove all doubt!

I totally agree.

i know at least two places had huge slaughters in the first half of year 2001. one is an island nation around Indonisya. 1000 ppl reported death. where was US? he doesn't say a thing. where was US when Israel open fire to Palestin people? what did he do? he stands up and back up Israel.

US cannot be blamed for all the killing going on out there. but if he claims he is the protector of the world, then he can go **** himself, because the truth is he is not.

I have been reading all of this and I really didn't want to get involved but my husband wanted to say a few things. So I am typing what he is saying.
"In regard to negative comments about the U.S.A., alot of people all over the world owe everything they have to us."

well, give your husband my regards

and tell him start thinking from now on

That wasn't a very nice thing to say. How can you say something like about someone you do not know? There was no need for that at all.

Hi all,

Don't want to get involved in the ethics stuff here, but I'm interested in military vehicles etc. I am getting confusing reports from the TV over as as to what type the spy plane was. It keeps being quoted as a P3, but I know thats wrong as the Orion is a sub-hunter. I'm guessing the designation should be something like EP3, can anyone confirm this? Also what is this crafts primary functon is it an ELINT bird or photographic?

Just as an ironic twist:

Draconia please tell your hubby that if it wasn't for the Chinese we wouldn't have gunpowder http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif



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Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger

HATS for sale baby!
Sponsored by Yorick
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k, sorry for that. shouldnt have made assumptions

Sir Tainly, he knows that. He is a history buff and a gun buff.

Just thought it ironic that it should be the Chinese that were the ultimate facilitators of modern warfare, I wasn't trying to be unkind or anything.


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Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger

HATS for sale baby!
Sponsored by Yorick
Your ad here? Call 112 -221 -123

well, then i suppose he should know better than to believe "most people owe everything to US" because "US owe most people everything" as well. and this is not an empty claim because, there are suffers (and i dare say, a lot of them) out there indirectly/directly caused by US foreign policies

I understand Sir Tainly. I am sorry. I guess I was on the defense because of what was said. My husband is not ignorant, stupid nor an idiot. I do not want him portrayed as such.

Look 250, YOU know nothing about my husband. Just because he said that does not mean that he doesn't know about everything else. He is aware of it all. Please leave my husband out of this. You do not know him and you have no right to assume you know what he thinks or knows. He just wanted me to write that in. He also has an opinion and he has not said anything negative towards you.



[This message has been edited by Draconia (edited 04-07-2001).]

I understand, I guessed you reacted as you did, for this reason. Perhaps it would be better if your husband came on the forum himself, then he could more easily state his views, rather than by posting by proxy. It is too easy for his statements to be taken out of context this way, and without him able to justify and counter argue. Anyway I hope you are feeling better today, maybe you'll be able to laugh soon without it hurting, hope so http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif



------------------
http://website.lineone.net/~swhite10...ile/knight.gif
Holy Avenger of the OHF and part time Pinguindiebjäger

HATS for sale baby!
Sponsored by Yorick
Your ad here? Call 112 -221 -123

Name one group of people that owe everything they have to us!

I am not bashing your husband so please don't read this that way. I am just asking the question.



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http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif
It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant,
than open it and remove all doubt!

Thanks Sir Tainly. I think it might be a few days before I can laugh without it hurting. I feel really good today.
My husband will probably not post here. He is not into this type of thing. He usually doesn't even come near my computer. It was my fault, I brought this thread to his attention because I didn't know anything about what happened. I don't watch the news. So from now on, I won't post any of his opinions.

Sorry but I won't answer that.

well, he certainly has his opinion. but that doesnt make me feel any better. he doesnt have to explain anything, and i dont have to change my opnion, and you dont have to care. if he wants to be left out of this, then ignore my posts. if he or you choose to confront it, then explain yourself

I thank you for being so nice not saying negative things about me. i havent said any but my opinion, i cannot help if you consider it a false one, but don't make mistake if i care to correct it just because you point out i am making assumptions. you dont have to care as well, either way


[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 04-07-2001).]

I won't get into this debate under any circumstances, but just wanted to thank you, IR, for the above post. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif

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So long !

R³ - new, much improved signature under construction !


http://www.angelfire.com/rpg/castletainly/gifs/cow.gif

You mean to tell me 250, that wasn't negative??

In both of those instances the U.S.A. was NOT ask by anyone to step in, so we didn't step in. Right or wrong the fact is that the U.S.A. is top dog. As for nationalism I not talking about that I talking about pride in the country of ones citzenship. If the U.S.A. was to be nationalist who could stop us? How would they stop us? Throughout history no country has been in our position and not been nationalistic till now! We have the best and the baddest nukes we could stomp all commers, but we don't. Yeh, that sounds like a mean country to me.

As for the Palesinains were was your anger when Israelis were attacked? Two wrongs don't make a right remember? Or does that logic only apply when being used to argue with someone who's opinions differ from yours? Crap happens in this world, your country must be perpared or parish.
250 I'm not attacking you just your logic, but I did notice that in your response to Draciona you attacked the person, her husband. Now I ask you in all sincerity who has remained true to their convictions? The evil meanspirited conservative southern red-neck (code word for hate monger)or the enlightened one? No where can it be found where I have said anything hateful about anyone, I have disagreeed with the opinions, I have disagreed with the logic of others. Yet, my postions are concidered to be the mean one. In one of your earlier post you told me to go home, a complety ineffective remark, since the odds are thats where I already am, and IMHO a rather childish remark.(I said the remark was childish not you)


[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 04-07-2001).]

well, i've decided to leave you and your husband out of this. howeverm since you asked, i will share a little. to be honest, that WAS the first thing came into my mind. thats right, i dont know you and your husband. ppl do make assumptions easily, no one can escape this. i am afraid i wasn't so wise to consider mine more carefully. i said it, so i said it. it was negative, i cannot help.

I would apologize if I did it out of pure intention to start a flame or attack, but I did not. it was my opinion.

anyway, that above wasn't what the point wanted to say
I re-read your post more carefully, trying my best to pond every word you post. I made more assumptions:

first, your husband never came near computer, which ashamed me in comparison because it only sounds like he is a man with real things to do and real matters to concern instead of sitting here arguing over none-sense (like me).

second, he is obviously not stupid. I seriously suspect there is much more to his claim than the apparence.

third, he is aware of what is going on out there, and he still made this claim.

I dont know why i am posting this because i am afraid i might be doing a fiendish thing to re-open someone's memory or maybe he knows something, anyway, i stop right here

Dadgomeit 250 now I got to aplogize to you I was typing my novel when you post went through to Dracoina You know how us rednecks hate say we're sorryhttp://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

I cannot believe you still held that empty claims believing US the world's biggest savior or something.

"if US are nationalist, who could stop us?"
the answer is everyone. you dare to do such a thing openly against everyone on earth? no empires/tyrannies, be it Roman Kingdom, Mongalian, or any other stood against its people's rage and not being crushed

"through out the history, no country has..."
what history are you indicating? short like 200 years? well, i tell you, your history is only a drop of water in the ocean wide time. how pathetic this "mighty" would seem when centuries later. when the new comers look back and hear their ancestors' empty claims/boasts echo through the waste which used to be a mighty nation, and they point out "this, was USA"

about Palestine, had not US been so strongly support Israel, it wouldn't have the guts to openly stood against all Arab countries and took Palestines' lands. this caused today's cnstant warfares in mid-west. US did it, why? because they need to maintain a strong supply of oil as well as a powerful ally.

anyway, thats about all i want to say. i have better things to do. my remark about "go home" is not to you but your nation, think it childish if you mst. know that if you dont allow people's casual talk, then.... err, i dont know.

about attacking Draconia's husband. she can prove me wrong if she wills, or she can choose to believe my ignorance and avoid answering my insult. either way.

this is my last post here

I have been posting all those based on my own perspective and assumptions, after all, i am a person knows little about politics while i am trying to understand it. if what i said was naive or seem out of place then take it as a laugh, know that those were my honest opinions.

having said that, i am going to let the matter drop and get going with my life.

Thank you for making my point about the U.S. not being Nationalistic all of the world powers that you listed were nationalistic and here is a few more through out history the Unitied Kingdom mid 1500's - late 1800's when they were top dog, the aztec empire 1400's - early 1500's, the Assyrians 600's B.C. Egytpian empire we can go back to the caveman.

As for who could stop us? the question was not answered with any facts to back it up. The U.S.A. has approx 10,000 deliverable nukes the big boys not counting the tac. nukes. The U.K. around 500 ,France less than that, Russia vertualy none deliverable, China a couple of hundered. India a handful ,Pakistan same.
Do the math, and it will be evident that we out number everybody else by a large margin. Again that makes my point that we are not nationalistic
As for Israel while you are here(assumtion made from address made on posts "Ca or Mo") you might want to check out the discovery channel or history channel,
They have shows on all the time about how the Nation of Israel started and fought in the early years. It is inacurate to assume that Israel could not survive with out the U.S.A. We have a saying here "it's not the size of the dog in the fight it's the size of the fight in the dog". The Israelis have prevailed in their past conflicts not because of U.S. equiptment, rather because of Israeli will.
As for the oil supply if I'm not mistaken the Arab have most of that, not Israel.

Just my 2 cents - take it for what it is worth...

Frankly, I don't know why we can't all just "get along" and quite this rooster posturing by both China and US. Frankly, I wonder if either side will be able to save face and settle this in a peaceable manner.

As far as the American bashing goes: Keep in mind that it is ALWAYS wrong to hate in the plural. I may not always support what our "elected leaders" do, but I have never hated one country for what one person did.

There may have always been spies - but the rules of the air are the same by sea - the small and manuverable must give way to the big and cumbersome. The Chinese pilot had a reputation for "hotdogging" and was trying to give the US plane a scare... and they were really in US air space.. even as China keeps extending the line.

A war between US and China would be in neither's interest.. and I am hoping the leaders of both countries realize this. It would not only devastate two countries, but it would impact the world's economy, the enviornment and in other ways that cannot be predicted.

There really is no debate here - unless you just want to bash one country over another.. I thought we got past that on the internet... no borders here.

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http://www.vaulscastle.com/games/bg/portsf/FHum02L.jpg
Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
The secret is knowing the rules so you can bend/break them selectively!!! ;)
Aquisition master of the Finest of Humours - and the Killer Joke :D
Musketeer of Fast Fourward
Looking for lost brain - I left it only for a moment....
Muse and Eternal Love of KDogRex

one doesnt need 20,000 to destroy a country, it actually makes no sense to say 20,000 is better than 2,000 in terms of nuclears

and i doubt it would resolve in nuclear war. that only means the extinction of mankind, sad, sad

about your other points, i dotn want to argu simply because i dont care

I think you hit the nail on the head it's a save face problem, I've never understood that. It seems logical to me if you're wrong you can only save face by admitting it. To do anything else just shows that not only are you wrong but you're blind to the truth as well.

Originally posted by John D Harris:
[/b][/QUOTE]
I think you hit the nail on the head it's a save face problem, I've never understood that. It seems logical to me if you're wrong you can only save face by admitting it. To do anything else just shows that not only are you wrong but you're blind to the truth as well.[/b][/QUOTE]

It is especially true to save face with an Asian country... it is going to be difficult for both side to wiggle out.

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http://www.vaulscastle.com/games/bg/portsf/FHum02L.jpg
Defender for the Light -
Goodness knows there is a lot of Dark out there!! - Where are my matches?!?
The secret is knowing the rules so you can bend/break them selectively!!! http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...miles/wink.gif
Aquisition master of the Finest of Humours - and the Killer Joke http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif
Musketeer of Fast Fourward
Looking for lost brain - I left it only for a moment....
Muse and Eternal Love of KDogRex

[This message has been edited by Charean (edited 04-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Charean (edited 04-07-2001).]

This is not about China holding it's own men, This is about them holding our Servicemen. This Wen Ho Lee, should still be in jail if not executed, in my book selling secrets to another nation is treason. You know what the penalty for treason should be.....death, if it is not already.

Anyone who doesn't like the way we do things in america can leave. The only way we should have to pay consequences if it was our fault for the collision. But if you take all the evidence, Type of planes, pilot history(Mr. top gun want to be) maveuverability, and all the factors. The evidence seems to suggest that they collided with us.

I also notice nobody said anything about the subs that fire Undetectable nukes, that were purchased from our former enemy.

John D Harris, hey, good to see you still here. Can you belive the drivel that is spewing forth.

Draconia, It seems that these guys are jealous of your husbands grasp on the world situation, Bravo to him.

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Feel My Power

Arcane Adept of the OHF, "So let it be written, So let it be done"

Djinn Raffo, don't sell it to us, problem solved.http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif
I'm not making a moral jugdement on wiether or not we should be top dog , just the facts. Personaly I never bought into manifest destniny we are in the position we are in because of blind-ass luck and coasts on two oceans.

OK! Everyone Kiss And Make Up!

NEW TOPIC!

http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
Moni

http://members.aol.com/lasttrueprincess/images/ltp4.gif

Yes,ma'm (says with down cast eyes and a slow southern draw, mumbles to self "but we's just fun'n um")http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 04-07-2001).]

I'm with Moni, we could argue forever. Can we all agree to disagree? And then maybe let it drop?