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Yorick probably won't respond 250. But I would be very interested to know which continent Saudi Arabia is on?
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but Kara-tur is still eastern asia culture. |
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Asia Boundaries Asia's border with Europe-which, geographically, may be regarded as a peninsula of the Eurasian landmass-lies approximately along the Urals, the Ural River, the Caspian Sea, the Caucasus, the Black Sea, the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits, and the Aegean Sea. The connection of Asia with Africa is broken only by the Suez Canal between the Mediterranean Sea and the Red Sea. In the far northeast of Asia, Siberia is separated from North America by the Bering Strait. The continent of Asia is washed on the S by the Gulf of Aden, the Arabian Sea, and the Bay of Bengal; on the E by the South China Sea, East China Sea, Yellow Sea, Sea of Japan, Sea of Okhotsk, and Bering Sea; and on the N by the Arctic Ocean. ------------------ FAIR DINKUM! [This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 03-14-2001).] |
nice recitation. but Kara-tur is dedicated to eastern asia culture. take a look at ALL the kingdoms in kara-tur, none has any indication of western such as Arabia.
those daos are at Calimshan |
Dare I stick my input in the midst of this "heated" topic? Falcar was asking about party composition. The whole point is to have fun with the game you're playing, for it's unlikely that someone will access your hard drive in years to come and say, "Well how do you like that! He had a mage, and when the hell was there ever a Chinese mage?"
Remember, Earth and the "Prime Material Plane" are two different things. If I enjoy playing a Kensai/Mage (Oh, and I do...) then I think that my enjoyment of this outways the fact(or lack of facts, as this topic has shown)that it may not be truly Easten (or Kara-Turan, or whatever). So guys- have fun and quit arguing about "Facts". This is just an adult version of "make-belive", by the way. ------------------ and the flaming sword turning every way, guards the tree of life. |
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I just stumbled in this thread, and I cant't believe, 250, how you can be so aggressive and close-minded. Would you have payed closer attention to the people here, you would know by now that Yorick is one of the most cultured people here, and that his posts are always interesting to read and open our minds to new ways of thinking. I thought a forum was a wonderful place to exchange thoughts and ideas. Don't you agree ? Please pay attention when you start insulting someone with "you don't know a shit" stuff. Ancient Greeks stated that the wisest man is he who knows that he doesn't know. Respect is the key.
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250, I have nothing against you personally, but I do believe you're being a little unfair towards the Asian culture.
I believe that the argument to include Wizards was because firstly, they are essential to successful play in BG2, and secondly, they can be linked to asian themes. If Arthur can have Merlin, why not the Qin Emperors and their Court Scientists? And in case you think that there WERE no educated men of that caliber capable of performing the amazing (in the eyes of a commoner) feats, China had an imperial school and held national examinations to locate talented men to serve in the Imperial Courts. Nobody is saying that there is a direct example of mages and wizards in Chinese or Japanese history (though there WERE many shamans and holy men believed to have divine powers in other parts of Asia) like there is to Assassins or Kensai, however it is entirely possible to link the Educated Men in the Chinese Dynasties to the Mages in BG2. This post is still on forming an Asian themed party for enjoyment, not historical accuracy. IF you wish to discuss Asian history and folklore, I would be happy to do so in the General Forum. There Is a possibility that wizards can be linked to Figures in Chinese History and Mythology, and thats what the person who recommended mages(Yorick? Im not sure) was thinking I'm sure. Kensai are not the direct translation of Samurai, Monks are not the direct translation of ShaoLin Martial artists and I'm sure that nobody debates the fact that Wizards and Sorcerors are not direct translations of Early Chinese Scientists, so please be more open minded when dealing with other members of this board. We are all entitled to our own opinions on playing the game. ------------------ Why? |
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my point is still there isn't wizard in asia. the example in china, what anceint chinese practiced, was something called "ki" (yes, not only in fiction and BGII) people still pratice it today. "ki" is a nuatual ability of human being, it is science, not mythology. about imperial school, it got nothing to do with impressive feats. it was a school for government to choose young talents (future officers/generals/ministers) a mature description/tale/fiction about wizard had NEVER been heard of in china. and yes, there were witch doctors, and as well as some natives with "godlike" abilities. but they are not wizards. in my opinion, wizards are ones praticed magic with 8 different schools, divination, conjuration, enchentment, necromecy, abjuration, etc. if that is the case, then there isn't ANY wizard in asia. |
Forget it Lifeline. I don't think he even reads the posts we write. It's a waste of time. Every counter to that last statement by "Number boy" has already been covered in previous posts. No new points, arguments or counters at all. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-.../ugone2far.gif
We should grab a coffee or something mate? Whaddya say? http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif ------------------ FAIR DINKUM! [This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 03-14-2001).] |
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It is all a matter of what you put into the words "magic" and "wizard", it seems. What is your definition, 250 ?
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It is all a matter of what you put into the words "magic" and "wizard", it seems. What is your definition, 250 ?
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this is my opinion, you can try and convice me it is wrong, or show yours is right, or dont care at all. I will listen if I see it makes sense. |
Its Lifetime heh. And Yes, I'm a American Born Chinese living in Singapore..Funky stuff.
Oh yeah I dont take Coffee, but something else might do fine http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif 250, I concede your point, however I ask you, are there any necromancers or transmuters in Europe, or Africa, for that matter? I ask you to look from a different perspective, not to change your own, which is undoubtedly also correct in it's own way. ------------------ Why? |
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Let's do it then Lifetime (sorry). Drop me an email. ------------------ FAIR DINKUM! |
P.S. The mythical figure of Merlin was actually a Celtic Druid, not a Wizard if we're going to be precise.
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Same concepts get different names in different cultures. Troubles arise when different people put different notions under the same name. Man is said to be flexible and able to adapt to any situation. No need to fight for words (that is, is you don't find fun in the fighting process).
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I'll do so soon.
How old be you? ------------------ Why? |
He's thirteen.
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And you are 84. Is that correct ? http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
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No, I'm Eleventy One!
------------------ The Truth is in the Profile |
I hate to point this out but is there actually any point to this argument, I think your both wasting your typing time, and I know Yorick will not concede his point and I doubt 250 will now. I also have to ask 250 why he is been so closed minded, I always thought that you were a genuine open minded person but you seem unwilling to even consider another point of view, weather you agree with it or not. Now what I think doesn't matter but IT'S NOT REAL, Karatur does not! exist. and Saudi Arabia is right by Iran in Asia incase you don't know.
------------------ http://hesperex.tripod.com/hesperex.jpg Master Assassin of the Holy Flame. My website http://hesperex.8k.com |
Does anyone of you actually enjoy THESE kinds of debates ?
And if no, why are you having/continuing them ? Good night ! ------------------ So long ! R³ - Co-president(s) of the Club of Broken Hearts [This message has been edited by Ramon de Ramon y Ramon (edited 03-14-2001).] |
Anyone out there ever play the AD&D "Oriental Adventures" back in the day? It's been about fifteen years ago since I read my copy, but it seems they had a magic-user called a "Wu Jen". I have forgotten their version of a cleric, but I know they had a healer type as well.
Yorick, I guess by the plural reference that I meant: it takes two to argue. I meant no offense, and this elite Waterdeep guard salutes his superiors! I'm as guilty as any by stirring the pot, so I'll include myself in "guys". I guess I'm up to four cents now. ------------------ and the flaming sword turning every way, guards the tree of life. |
Im sorry i didnt see this post sooner. I spent alot of time at a university in Beijing and actually studied ancient asian culture. There are many aspects of asian history (both oral and written) that elude to magic and some of them outright state the existence of it. For instance,while most stories refer to gods and "godly magic" their are also scripts that refer to common people and "commoners magic". One such person is Han Hsiang Tzu. He was a scholar who was persecuted because he chose to study magic rather than prepare for civil service (and yes, its actually uses the word "magic"). In order to prove that magic was real Han made two roses materialize out of some lines of poetry. There are also scripts which refer to magic items such as "magic swords" and such. In one such story Lu Tung Po slays a dragon with a magic sword. This sword was forged from Chang Kua Luao, and no Lu was not a god http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif I hope that this can clear some issues up about magic in asian culture. Thanks for listening. -Aegis
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The forger of the magic sword in my last post was actually Chang Kua Puzo. I apologize for the mistake.
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man... or woman (either way) please put chinese version of those people's names after the english ones. I cannot seem to recongnize any of them. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif |
No worries Zateel. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif
Aegis, thanks for your input as with yours Hesperex. Ramon, mystified is more the word. I enjoy passionate intelligent discussion, but this has me more intrigued. How one can keep reiterating an argument so lacking in foundation astounds me. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif He has been proved wrong on the count of Asian "magic-users" by 3 of us, proved wrong about Arabic nations in Asia by two of us plus an encyclopedia reference, four of us pointed out to him that Kara-tur is actually an imaginary world, and yet he refuses to acknowledge or accede to any of these points. His grounding for "no wizards in Asia" is based on the presumption that because he has never come across such figures in the myths he is familiar with, they don't exist. This is a bold statement to begin with, but the fact that a few of us have heard of such, or quantified our definition of "wizard" and "magic" should have provoked a rethink - alas no. To further his cause an attempt was made to exclude non-chinese cultures from Asia. Again despite opposing evidence and opinions a rethink was again not evident. Entertaining would also be the word. Like a good mystery. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif C'mon 250, give it a rest mate. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif No shame in being wrong sheesh! ------------------ FAIR DINKUM! |
Yorick. of course no shame in being wrong, but I am just not convinced. sorry, you all tried. I am not convinced. you can call me closed minded or thick skull or whatever. It takes more to convince someone.
and about the real name thing, I wasn't asking for the sake of who is right or who is wrong. I was just interested. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif |
and sorry about that "you dont know shit" part. it was a bad hobbit carried with me from somewhere else... where debates were more firece and terrifying. heh, if you been there, you wouldn't be surprised.
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You may as well say that there is no grass in France and then refuse to be convinced. "MAGIC-USERS HAVE EXISTED IN ASIAN MYTHOLOGICAL WRITINGS" It's not a matter of being convinced, this is not a philosophical or religious discussion, this is a discussion on the historical existence of a mythological profession. You are wrong. To continue to adhere to a blind opposite thought, defys logic. It only serves to diminish your standing when making future statements. There is strength in admitting failure 250. ------------------ FAIR DINKUM! |
No worries about the "You don't know shit". This is a different board to the innane discussions on others, largely because the contributors are older, deeper thinkers and from various professions and nations. We also have a large percentage of women (thankfully) which brings in a totally different flavour.
Try putting up your person details 250. You've picked a number and disclosed nothing about yourself in your profile. It hardly makes for a warm welcome. http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...es/biggrin.gif Lifetime, I'm 29. ------------------ FAIR DINKUM! |
sorry about my extraordianry commanding of english language as sometimes they don't seem to make any sense, nonetheless you got the picture.
ok, get to the point. to myself, my qusetion is those "qulified" figures you mentioned, can they really be considered as wizard? what is the standard of a wizard? I asked myself over and over (heh, it interested me a bit, i have to admit, and it is no longer who is right or wrong) and that leads to another question: how do people created this "wizardery" figure in the first place? there are many reasons for those mythterious figures' existence. I would think wizard resembled a sense of control over the unknown, they also resembled knowledge and wisdom. (of course, it is slightly different to different cultures) At the time when things weren't so developed, there were things could not be explained by ancient people,( i tried 10 mins to find a big word to express my meaning, but obviously, i failed, anyway) so those people who seek or already had a slight idea of the "arcane" normally had more sense of control, and therefore, those figures were mytified and respected, even feared. I guess this is how the wizard started in the first place. And if we both agree the wizard as a figure expressed above, then there were "wizard" in asia. HOWEVER! as i said, to different culture, wizard would resemble slightly different things. and that is CERTAINLY true. in western cultures, ones like europe, I would think (though I definately not sure, correct me if I am wrong) wizards means a strong sense of control, knowledgable, and PERSON (yes, that is the key word, PERSON, the difference between western and eastern culture) on the other hand, the eastern culture more look into the connection BETWEEN person and his surroundings, such as natual, unknown myths, people, and such. ACKKKK I hate english, I will stop right now [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 03-15-2001).] [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 03-15-2001).] |
and wizard also resembles a sense of fear. to the ancient people, of course
but my point is... ARRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGG, i am going berserk! it is so hard to explain what I am trying to say ok, calm down, let me try again. OH I SEE!!! give me a min to type |
It simple wizzards are some lunitics who think they are somthing but when you take your sword push it through his heart he knows that he is for no more than others
Dead to the wizzards http://www.tgeweb.com/ironworks/cgi-...iles/smile.gif except.... ------------------ My strength and honor for king and country |
you see, in western world, person who was considered as wizard (this sounds wired because there wasn't any, then again... over look the gramma please) there are still human, right? yes they are.
but in asia, those mythical figures are all god-related. Agies' post mentioned someone who slew a dragon and he was no god was definately not true. for example, chinese people respect ghost, and unnatual things, those who had great knowledge were feared, yes, indeed feared, but the respect part played more weight than fear. the execution of people with unnatual abilites were VERY rare. there were many many tales regard with people who had godlike abilities. (watch my word choice, not magic) that is not something they come up with intelligence or hard working or had control over certain knowledge, no, they were mostly god-granted power. Someone could hide deep in moutains and "draw" power from natual, and after few thousands years, they become gods. while in western, the figures most closely resembled wizards are witchs, correct (you can certainly disprove it) but the emotion regard them were more fear out of respect. and mostly those...err.... I dont really know. tell me what you know about "western" defined wizard, and compare to what I already told you. maybe that will lead to some sense. sigh... I give up |
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