MY insane fighter cleric of tybboch rules!!! unstoppabble the spells are just a bonus my personal fave of all time

:(

As I recall it was posts like these (well with swearing and personal insults) that caused BG Dungeon to close down...

Dundee is right, but lets not fuss and fight... Clerics CAN beat up the mages in the game (especially liches), but the two are not balanced to be going head to head in PvP.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Eldoran:
:(

As I recall it was posts like these (well with swearing and personal insults) that caused BG Dungeon to close down...

Dundee is right, but lets not fuss and fight... Clerics CAN beat up the mages in the game (especially liches), but the two are not balanced to be going head to head in PvP.<hr></blockquote>

Agreed...with this final tidbit.

There are simply too many variables in the game to make a clear determination. Situations, playing solo, playing with a party, equipment, spells, abilities, weapon proficiencies, stats, etc. A Mage can have every item and spell available and still get whupped if they don't know what's around the corner. So can a Cleric. Personally, I think having already played the game and knowing your opponent's strengths/weaknesses beforehand describes a certain amount of cheese.

The definition of "powerful" is ill-defined.

Clerics can wear Amulet of Power man, geez. Your spells won’t have an effect if the cleric is running around with 85% magic resistance. Can comfortably have almost 100%.

Clerics can’t prepare spells? WTF? Clerics have lots of spells they can cast on themselves to be tougher.

You are dumb! Look at True Sight!

True Sight (Divination)
Level: 6
Range: 0
Duration: 1 turn
Casting Time: 8
Area of Effect: 70' radius
Saving Throw: None

When this spell is cast, an area roughly 70 feet in radius around the caster will be effected. Instantly and once each round for 1 turn after this spell is cast, all hostile illusion/phantasm spells in the area of effect will be dispelled. The spells that are affected by this are: Refected Image, Invisibility, Mirror Image, NON-DETECTION, Improved Invisibility, Shadow Door, Mislead, Project Image, and Simulacrum. The area of effect is roughly a 70' radius around the caster. The target's magic resistance, if any, does not come into effect with this spell. This spell only affects enemies, thus it is unable to dispel the invisibility from a party member.

Oh, and the cleric dons Belt of the Inertial Barrier. 50% magic damage resistance. Armour of Faith adds another 25%, oh no! 75% damage resistance. Those Horrid Wiltings are gonna get laughed off you know. 1-2 damage per level doesn’t amount to quite as much as you were hopping for I think.

Shield of the Archons abosrbs spells, HOLY/UNHOLY WORD is rather fun. Thats no saving throw btw. ;) 1 casting time as well.

Also, could cast Aura of Flaming Death before casting spells. You won’t last very long. Oh, and globe of Blades too. Mages aren’t bad, clerics aren’t bad. It depends on your playing style and preference. Mages are brute idiots, clerics are tricky.

lol, I just feel like arguing lately. ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:


Refer to the first page of this thread. The Spell Trigger and Chain Contingency combo is explained in better detail. Ah heck, I will just repeat myself.

Spell Trigger = 3 Lower Resistances

Chain Contingency = 3 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wiltings

Your Cleric will not be pounding, your Cleric will become a desiccated corpse on the ground.<hr></blockquote>

First of all you didn't have to be so damn mean your argueing about a silly game not about morals or values so don't be so ruthless.

If you are assuming that the mage knows about the battle and is allowed to prepare himself via contingency then why cannot the cleric just send a summoned animal to disable the contingency! It is unfair to allow the mage the advantage of preparation but not the cleric! Look, I'm not even going to believe for a second that you played through the whole game with a lower resistance contingency set. The contingencies only are used once you reload from dying or if you have played through the game prior. Yea a mage would kill with the contingency! So what the spell shouldn't have been in the game it is the SINGLE thing mages have that makes them so grand of a solo class. They both equally suck this game is a party game contingencies should of been disabled due to the grossness of the attack. No one uses a contingency on 50% health nope because the good spell is the area effect one and it is always when you see an enemy. I don't think contingencies should get activated upon sighting an enemy. It is too preplanned just because you know the fight is comming up because you recently got your ass kicked. Look, mages do have the advantage because and only because of the chain contingency that is it nothing more aside from that little thing they are totally equal.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
It depends on your playing style and preference. Mages are brute idiots, clerics are tricky.
<hr></blockquote>

hehehe...I think you mixed up the mages and clerics. :D

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Worm:
It is unfair to allow the mage the advantage of preparation but not the cleric!<hr></blockquote>

That is the specifics of the class, nobody is giving the mage the unfair advantage. It just happens to be part of his arsenal.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Worm:
Look, I'm not even going to believe for a second that you played through the whole game with a lower resistance contingency set. The contingencies only are used once you reload from dying or if you have played through the game prior. Yea a mage would kill with the contingency! <hr></blockquote>

No, but once I gained chain contingency, it was set to (25% hitpoints) target: nearest enemy 3 x Abi's Horrid. I'm not saying I never used the 3 Lower Resistance contingency, but like you said, only when I knew a battle where I needed it was coming. My contingency was set to stoneskin at the same 25% of my hitpoints.


Okay. Both are powerful, but (you saw that coming didn't you :D ) if both a mage and a cleric (of high levels) got any equipment they wanted, the mage would win 99% of the time. Spell trap soaks up 30 levels of spells cast at them. Example: 15th level mage. A spell sequencer loaded with three second level spells and a minor sequencer loaded with the same spell could do a total of 10d4 for a total of 6 rounds, that's 60-240 points of damage. Not to mention, it could possible disrupt your attempts to cast spells or even to neutralize the acid (exactly what spell does that?) ;) and while your attempting to neutralize it, your cleric is still going to absorb the next spell too.

Blade barrier is nice, but it would only eat through one stoneskin per round. Not quite devastating is it?

The major problem with pitting the two against each other is the lack of spell protection removers with the cleric class. Mages can strip any protections, while clerics can't.

Ahhh..My vote stays with the mages. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mitro Jellywadder:


No, but once I gained chain contingency, it was set to (25% hitpoints) target: nearest enemy 3 x Abi's Horrid. I'm not saying I never used the 3 Lower Resistance contingency, but like you said, only when I knew a battle where I needed it was coming. My contingency was set to stoneskin at the same 25% of my hitpoints.


Okay. Both are powerful, but (you saw that coming didn't you :D ) if both a mage and a cleric (of high levels) got any equipment they wanted, the mage would win 99% of the time. Spell trap soaks up 30 levels of spells cast at them. Example: 15th level mage. A spell sequencer loaded with three second level spells and a minor sequencer loaded with the same spell could do a total of 10d4 for a total of 6 rounds, that's 60-240 points of damage. Not to mention, it could possible disrupt your attempts to cast spells or even to neutralize the acid (exactly what spell does that?) ;) and while your attempting to neutralize it, your cleric is still going to absorb the next spell too.

Blade barrier is nice, but it would only eat through one stoneskin per round. Not quite devastating is it?<hr></blockquote>

But it still is matter of circumstance. Mages have waaayyy too many protection spells I can't stand it! I think a cleric if he played it cool sent in a group of summoned skeletons to disable contingencies of course the mage would have to cast a death spell which he certainly wouldn't have because it wouldn't hurt the cleric the mage wants to do damage he can't cause death but even if he did he would have to take time to cast it but THAT is when a cool headed cleric would attack. Eventually the undead would fall but as the mage was combating them the cleric could ... do a number of combative things energy disks, wand of the heavens, more summoning, or ranged weapons. It has been eons since my last play; but, doesn't greater restoration cast in like a fraction of a second?

But chances are the Wizard would of put on his God mode and it wouldn't matter no magic, weapons, magic weapons would effect him it is that simple. Wizards do have the damage down but as in most situations solid planing and strategy will succed which is precisely why this is an argument based on the circumstances and with unlimited circumstances there is no true answer each one could win but then again each one could lose. There is no definate truth with this matter. Just let the stinking thing go it really doesn't matter.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Worm:
But it still is matter of circumstance. Mages have waaayyy too many protection spells I can't stand it!<hr></blockquote>

[img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] I know what you mean. That's the major swinging point for me. If they didn't have that many protections, a cleric would be able to mop the floor with them.


<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Worm:
It has been eons since my last play; but, doesn't greater restoration cast in like a fraction of a second?
<hr></blockquote>


Pretty much. 3 casting time is pretty quick. I wasn't sure if there was a spell to counter it, but apparently there is. Would that remove the acid, or just heal the cleric?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Worm:
There is no definate truth with this matter. Just let the stinking thing go it really doesn't matter.<hr></blockquote>

I agree, no definite truth. As far as letting it go, this debate has actually given me a new respect for clerics, so I can't just let it go. [img]smile.gif[/img] I never used them for anything other than support members, maybe I'll just try to solo one and see how far I get. ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Clerics can wear Amulet of Power man, geez. Your spells won’t have an effect if the cleric is running around with 85% magic resistance. Can comfortably have almost 100%.

Oh momma! http://www.plauder-smilies.de/errrr.gif 85% magic resistance. Heavens, whatever shall we do? Refer to Spell Trigger( 3 Lower Resistances), now your magic resistances is -5%. Yes?

Clerics can’t prepare spells? WTF? Clerics have lots of spells they can cast on themselves to be tougher.

And by the time that they are done casting all of them, the Mage would have beaten Improved Demogorgan, smoked a cigar, did the lamba and polished his quarterstaff. If you want to talk about speed, the Mage is much, much faster.

You are dumb! Look at True Sight!
True Sight (Divination)
Level: 6
Range: 0
Duration: 1 turn
Casting Time: 8
Area of Effect: 70' radius
Saving Throw: None
When this spell is cast, an area roughly 70 feet in radius around the caster will be effected. Instantly and once each round for 1 turn after this spell is cast, all hostile illusion/phantasm spells in the area of effect will be dispelled. The spells that are affected by this are: Refected Image, Invisibility, Mirror Image, NON-DETECTION, Improved Invisibility, Shadow Door, Mislead, Project Image, and Simulacrum. The area of effect is roughly a 70' radius around the caster. The target's magic resistance, if any, does not come into effect with this spell. This spell only affects enemies, thus it is unable to dispel the invisibility from a party member.

Cloak of Non-Detection, what are you going to do about it? Oh wait, pardon me, whatever am I thinking? I can just cast Time Stop while you cast your True Sight.

Oh, and the cleric dons Belt of the Inertial Barrier. 50% magic damage resistance. Armour of Faith adds another 25%, oh no! 75% damage resistance. Those Horrid Wiltings are gonna get laughed off you know. 1-2 damage per level doesn’t amount to quite as much as you were hopping for I think.

Well, if you can survive that, bravo for you; but I can always fall back on Time Stop.

Shield of the Archons abosrbs spells, HOLY/UNHOLY WORD is rather fun. Thats no saving throw btw. ;) 1 casting time as well.

And after that? It will not kill the Mage outright. Melee attacks are out the question, and you will need some recovery time to cast again. Shield of the Archons will not protect you from Imprisonment by the way and well placed area-of-effect spells.

Also, could cast Aura of Flaming Death before casting spells. You won’t last very long. Oh, and globe of Blades too. Mages aren’t bad, clerics aren’t bad. It depends on your playing style and preference. Mages are brute idiots, clerics are tricky.

If you can cast Aura of Flaming Death, that means that I would have casted Time Stop already. The results for the Cleric is not going to be pretty; and Globe of Blades just take way too long to cast.<hr></blockquote>

Oh, and Mitro. Clerics can remove spell protections.

Dispel Magic. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/rotfl.gif

Just for the record again, allow me to repeat myself in case some people do not read my earlier posts.

Clerics do not suck, and they have a place in the game. They help other members become more powerful and provide aid whenever it is needed.

Clerics however, are not the masters of offensive/defensive magic.

In fact, if you read my first post. I have already mentioned the reasons why Mages have an edge over Clerics.

There is a reason why there are more famous/infamous kicka** Mages in the D&D world than Clerics. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
Oh, and Mitro. Clerics can remove spell protections.

Dispel Magic. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/rotfl.gif
<hr></blockquote>

Mages can strip any protections, while clerics can't.

You can't dispel a spell trap can you? :D ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mitro Jellywadder:
Mages can strip any protections, while clerics can't.
You can't dispel a spell trap can you? :D ;) <hr></blockquote>

Just wanted to let people know that Clerics can remove spell protections to a certain extend. [img]smile.gif[/img]

What irks me is that the computer Mages are actually capable of being more powerful than the Human controlled one. During my Time Stops, I have actually seen the computer Mages cast Spell Sequencers and Spell Triggers... rightttt... ...

Then they also have Magic Tatoos and nearly all the Liches have some kind of Super Chain Contingency which allows them to cast Spell Trap and Absolute Immunity instantaneously... ...

If only my Sorcerer could do those things... *drools*, the power! The power! It corrupts!

Uhm.

Why do you need non-detection?

With the staff of magi, as soon as they truesight, you can simply use it again, thus going invisible.

I'm afraid cleric's really can't do much about /that/.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by DrakenKorin:
Uhm.
Why do you need non-detection?
With the staff of magi, as soon as they truesight, you can simply use it again, thus going invisible.
I'm afraid cleric's really can't do much about /that/.<hr></blockquote>

I like to keep my fingers in tip-top shape, and while zealously pressing the F2 key repeatedly sounds fun, I like to be able to cast my spells calmly. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh, and welcome to the Ironworks Forums. http://www.plauder-smilies.de/wavey.gif

I'm thinking of trying a half-orc cleric (priest of helm kit) solo game. That would be a blast.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
I'm thinking of trying a half-orc cleric (priest of helm kit) solo game. That would be a blast.<hr></blockquote>

Good luck, and have fun!

With a halforc cleric of helm, he won't need any. ;) The only problem is killing bloody golems before you get the rod of smiting. Its painfully annoying. Iron Golem beat the crap out of the gated in Pit Fiends in a few seconds (shudders).

Cloak of Non-detection is useless, I always get detected just fine with True Sight, which is perhaps why the spell says it will. So, what is the mage going to do while the cleric casts Sanctuary? Its better than invisibility, he can cast some spells and stay hidden.

If your mage can use SPELL TRIGGERS, he has obviously be given the chance to prepare. In that time, the cleric could ALSO prepare by summoning creatures, using Aura of Flaming Death (lots of damage for a mage to absorb for each spell they cast I think), Blade Barrier if your too lazy to use stoneskin, Draw Upon Holy Might (and the other 3 or 4 HUGE bonus spells for clerics combat abilities) and can cast other spells.

Oh, wait, after I surivie your Wiltings, then I pelt you with energy discs and you won't be casting time stop in time. Poor mage.

And just why are melee attacks 'out of the question'? When your stuck with 50% spell failure, your not going to cast many/any spells for awhile. In that time, the cleric laughs as be beats the crap out of you.

The cleric would have put Aura of Flaming Death in place before the spell battle starts. A mage can survive 4 or 5 spells likley before keeling over and dying.

Oh, and I didn't get a reply to using the Antimagic scroll to make the mage unable to use any magic. I think that the cleric is about to beat the crap out of the mage by default at this time.

Yes as many have stated, no class is better than another really. Each has its uses and can beat another in many circumstances. Sometimes, a cleric can kill a mage, and perhaps, maybe, a mage MIGHT be able to hurt a cleric. ;) JK a mage might be able to kill a cleric some times too.

If things are at low level, the mage is as good as dead. At midlevels, I think the mage would win. At high levels, I think its all circumstance.

Time stop is cast instantly.
Mages have energy disks.
Mages can summon Planetars.
Mages have 'buffing' spells, like tensors transformation ect.
A mage could whack up a simalcrum/Projected image.


Think about it, even if you survive the contingencies/spell triggers the mage would simply cast time stop, smack you about a bit with the staff of the ram, summon a Planetar, run away, let the Planetar beat you up a bit, cast time stop again, smack you up a bit.....

My sorceror can cast 4 level 9 spells and he isn't even an uber-sorceror yet. Thats 3 time stops, and a Planetar. Or even better a Comet.... what ya gonna do when Time isn't even moving? Will you still be so smug when you wake up from your stasis to find several nasty looking comets/meteors/red dragon heads/skull traps/fireballs/Planetars/Dozens of hurled energy disks hitting you at the same time?
[img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img]
[img]graemlins/wavey.gif[/img] byebye Mr.Cleric heeeheeee

I hated to do this, but so be it. By the way, Cloak of Non-Detection does work against True Sight, if yours does not, then you got a bug.

Contingency: Spell Immunity

Chain Contingency: Protection from Magical Weapons, Stoneskin, True Sight

Both set to cast on self when enemy sighted.

Equipment:
----------

Armour: Robe of the Good/Evil/Neutral Magi
Gloves: Anything
Helmet: Anything
Amulet: Amulet of Power
Rings: Ring of Free Action, Ring of the Ram
Cloak: Cloak of Non-Detection
Boots: Boots of Speed
Belt: Anything

Weapon: Staff of Magi

The moment you go hostile, there is nothing that you can do but wait and die... or run away.

-made a few mistakes here, all of it goes ;) -

Another beauty of the Mage is that they can handle any situation. They have the most number of spell protections and spell counters. They have ways to lower Magic Resistance and have spells that ignore Magic Resistance.

[ADD]
Mordenkainen's Sword should be quite a handful against a Cleric too.
[/ADD]

There are so many ways to take down a Mage it's not even funny. Low HPs and a crappy AC. The ONLY time they truly shine is when they know what's coming so they can plan ahead...other than that, their lack of versatility makes them a joke (which is why you have other party members). Drop a Cleric and a Mage into an unknown scenario and the Cleric will survive more often than the Mage.

The thing is, the Mage can adapt better in the game because he/she has so many options to choose from. AC and Hp are not really an issue because as you should know, a Mage can become a metaphorical hard nut to crack. I rarely drink Health Potions in the game, I usually end up selling them because I ran out of space in my Potion Bags, so a Mage is not reliant on a Cleric for healing.

You say a Cleric have many ways to kill? Well a Mage have far more ways than the Cleric. Remember, a Mage has 9 levels of spells, excluding the high level abilities. A Cleric only has 7 levels of spells. So lack of versaltility is definitely not an issue with the Mage.

[ADD]
There is a reason why it is widely accepted that a Mage is very easy to solo with. Do not even get me started on Sorcerers.
[/ADD]

This is going nowhere.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yggdrasil:
This is going nowhere.<hr></blockquote>
Ladies and gentlemen the first half-way true thing said in this arguement.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern:
I hated to do this, but so be it. By the way, Cloak of Non-Detection does work against True Sight, if yours does not, then you got a bug.

Contingency: Spell Immunity

Chain Contingency: Protection from Magical Weapons, Stoneskin, True Sight

Both set to cast on self when enemy sighted.

Equipment:
----------

Armour: Robe of the Good/Evil/Neutral Magi
Gloves: Anything
Helmet: Anything
Amulet: Amulet of Power
Rings: Ring of Free Action, Ring of the Ram
Cloak: Cloak of Non-Detection
Boots: Boots of Speed
Belt: Anything

Weapon: Staff of Magi

The moment you go hostile, there is nothing that you can do but wait and die... or run away.<hr></blockquote> You SHOULD use the robe of Vecna.

Your assuming the mage and cleric both know the battle is coming otherwise the cleric would probably have all healing spells memorized a few attack spells and a bit of summoning. The mage would probably have time stop no contingencies and probably a spell sequencer. Say I come in invisible and attack close range you have the abi's horrid withering on your trigger your dead(Clerics get boots of speed too) if you have spell immunity as a trigger your dead if you have the detect invis trigger on how would you know to cast it? How would the cleric know how to cast invisibility. I'll say this mages are more powerful in a clean cut you know what your fighting big open field battle that is what makes them great suppourt characters the awesome power they have. Clerics they a great at keeping things glued together they have pretty much every type of spell and summoning to even out numbers in a pinch that is what makes them great suppourt characters. Your arguing this as if it were BG2 which is wrong BG2 would depend on the circumstance.

Now D&D a powerful Mage and a Cleric fighting that would be worth arguing the cleric could have a manner of extra powers such as but not limited to his god's favor, holy relics, and more clerical spells. As the mage could have much more too! But in the end every battle is on circumstance and circumstance alone. My dwarven warrior gulvak probably could clean the floor with a mage just because he is gulvak he had like -6 saving throws vs death 0 vs magic he is just a cool character not to mention with gauntlets of blinding strike he would of been at your mage first and boom it is over. BUT you mage might have the immunity your mage might be prepared for a thieives backstab attack and have no contingencies for weapon immunity rather true sight. This is why it is circumstance ... it only matters on the occasion sure mages are better in clerics in alot of way but they still need the enemy to be totally known they need to not be in a small area due to abi's horrid withering. Clerics are great in a pinch because they double for a fighter and well tensers transformation is well and good it still takes time to cast!

Just stop it guys this isn't going to go anywhere.

When I play a mage, he always has stoneskin on. So a cleric doesnt seem to be able to sanctuary, come up and hit. A cleric wants to summon? Throw in a death spell. A cleric wants to come in and hit? Cast stoneskin, summon planetar. Even better, just cast inprisonment. HAHA, nothing you can do now huh cleric? Do clerics get to cast freedom? DONT THINK SO! HAHAHAHA.

A mage can handle EVERY situation, a cleric cant.

If a cleric has MR, its not like summons need to bother with summoned creatures right????

And in the early stages, lvl 1-10, its still the mage, cuz he could just do hit & run tactics with offensive spellcasting, unless a cleric has boots of speed and the mage doesnt, he is as good as dead.

But ofcourse, a cleric COULD do the cheap santuary, globe of blades tactic. Could work, but it is the only thing that could take a mage down, but chances are its not gonna work to to stone skin, or area spells such as fireball.

Now here are some more ways that mages are way better than clerics.

Clerics dont have as much offense spells as mages.

A mage can cast imprisonment, game over.

A mage can summon a fighter cleric anyways, Summon Planetar.

A mage can probably beat a cleric in melee combat anyways with a tensors transformation spell.

A mage can use a instant kill spell.

A cleric cant instant kill a mage due to protections.

A mage obviously has better summons than a cleric. NO CONTEST! Planetars and Mordenkainen sword. rule! BTW, my Mordenkainen Sword is Immune to all physical contact, only magic can hurt it, is this a bug?

A cleric cant hurt a mages Mordenkainen sword very well can (s)he?


The only way a cleric can even get close to hurting a mage if hes lvl 30 and the mage is level 10. But then a again...

Of course, even if you are using stoneskin, elemental damage still gets through. Yep, that 10 damage from the FotA gets to hit you still. Cleric can gate in a Pit Fiend pretty darn fast. Thats quite a distraction.

OR AS I SAID BEFORE, CLERIC COULD USE ANTIMAGIC SCROLL AND THE MAGE CAN'T DO ****. Its all circumstance.

Mages aren't more flexible, as they have to know whats coming more than clerics do. You can't give a mage a contingency without having given the cleric time to cast spells before the fight as well, and say the cleric gates in 6 or 7 pit fiends and beefs them up? Your mage won't last very long against all that (send them in 1 at a time to make you waste your horid wiltings ect).

It is obvious, that since we can both find a circumstance when the other would win, that neither is more powerful.

I agree, lets end the bickering part.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Of course, even if you are using stoneskin, elemental damage still gets through. Yep, that 10 damage from the FotA gets to hit you still. Cleric can gate in a Pit Fiend pretty darn fast. Thats quite a distraction.

I don't think daemon summons are all that useful, since it cannot be controlled.... I think we can all agree that NPC melee AI is pretty cruddy.

OR AS I SAID BEFORE, CLERIC COULD USE ANTIMAGIC SCROLL AND THE MAGE CAN'T DO ****. Its all circumstance.

Then the mage summons whatever he likes to melee you, or does it himself with tensers, some of the nice staves, and spells like MMM or energy blades... The scrolls of Protection from Magic leave a cleric helpless... All they can do then is use items.

Mages aren't more flexible, as they have to know whats coming more than clerics do. You can't give a mage a contingency without having given the cleric time to cast spells before the fight as well, and say the cleric gates in 6 or 7 pit fiends and beefs them up? Your mage won't last very long against all that (send them in 1 at a time to make you waste your horid wiltings ect).

I agree, but you CAN actually memorize several different spells per spell level... And sorcerers always have a choice of any spells they know of the particular level. I personally know that I could handle 7 pit fiends, and then a cleric... And I would only have to use one level 7 spell to do it too ;)

It is obvious, that since we can both find a circumstance when the other would win, that neither is more powerful.

I agree, both are very powerful.. So are ranger, thieves, bards... Every class is powerful. What people don't seem to understand is POWER DOES NOT EQUAL PVP ABILITY!

I agree, lets end the bickering part.

Darn right, no more bickering... That is, when people stop trying to refute the obvious truth that mages are better than clerics in PvP... Not PvM, not any other situation... but set them against each other, and in BG2: ToB, the mage will beat the cleric.
<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Tom:
When I play a mage, he always has stoneskin on. So a cleric doesnt seem to be able to sanctuary, come up and hit. A cleric wants to summon? Throw in a death spell. A cleric wants to come in and hit? Cast stoneskin, summon planetar. Even better, just cast inprisonment. HAHA, nothing you can do now huh cleric? Do clerics get to cast freedom? DONT THINK SO! HAHAHAHA.

A mage can handle EVERY situation, a cleric cant.

If a cleric has MR, its not like summons need to bother with summoned creatures right????

And in the early stages, lvl 1-10, its still the mage, cuz he could just do hit & run tactics with offensive spellcasting, unless a cleric has boots of speed and the mage doesnt, he is as good as dead.

But ofcourse, a cleric COULD do the cheap santuary, globe of blades tactic. Could work, but it is the only thing that could take a mage down, but chances are its not gonna work to to stone skin, or area spells such as fireball.

Now here are some more ways that mages are way better than clerics.

Clerics dont have as much offense spells as mages.

A mage can cast imprisonment, game over.

A mage can summon a fighter cleric anyways, Summon Planetar.

A mage can probably beat a cleric in melee combat anyways with a tensors transformation spell.

A mage can use a instant kill spell.

A cleric cant instant kill a mage due to protections.

A mage obviously has better summons than a cleric. NO CONTEST! Planetars and Mordenkainen sword. rule! BTW, my Mordenkainen Sword is Immune to all physical contact, only magic can hurt it, is this a bug?

A cleric cant hurt a mages Mordenkainen sword very well can (s)he?


The only way a cleric can even get close to hurting a mage if hes lvl 30 and the mage is level 10. But then a again...<hr></blockquote>You acting as if each mage can cast any spell at anytime with out having to memorize them.


*PUKE*


It is all circumstance mages never have a 100% win rate as clerics do not.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Worm:
You SHOULD use the robe of Vecna.<hr></blockquote>

I wanted to avoid the argument that it is the Robe of Vecna that kills the Cleric. Mages can still defeat them in the BG2 game without the Robe of Vecna.

I do not know of PnP, but frankly, I find it ludicrous that a Cleric can be more powerful than a Mage in the BG2 game. A Mage will always have an easier time in the game than the Cleric because the Mage can handle any situation that the game throws at him/her easily. Thanks to his/her spell selection, there is nothing a Mage cannot do in the game.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Of course, even if you are using stoneskin, elemental damage still gets through. Yep, that 10 damage from the FotA gets to hit you still.

Mm hmm, and bounces off the Protection from Magical Weapons.

Cleric can gate in a Pit Fiend pretty darn fast. Thats quite a distraction.

Pit Fiend, meet Planetar. Planetar, please kill Pit Fiend.

OR AS I SAID BEFORE, CLERIC COULD USE ANTIMAGIC SCROLL AND THE MAGE CAN'T DO ****. Its all circumstance.

There was a reason why I mentioned Mordenkainen's Sword. You need to kill it using Magic Damage. Good luck.

Mages aren't more flexible, as they have to know whats coming more than clerics do. You can't give a mage a contingency without having given the cleric time to cast spells before the fight as well, and say the cleric gates in 6 or 7 pit fiends and beefs them up? Your mage won't last very long against all that (send them in 1 at a time to make you waste your horid wiltings ect).

Give a Mage one round to prepare, that is all he/she needs. Improved Alacrity. By the way, a Mage can always use a Planetar or even Skeleton Warriors to fight the Pit Fiends. Pit Fiends are not tough, they are actually pretty weak.

It is obvious, that since we can both find a circumstance when the other would win, that neither is more powerful.

I have already detailed how a Mage can defeat a Cleric without contest. The thing is, a Mage can counter whatever a Cleric throws at him/her. A Cleric on the other hand, cannot. This is the very basis of my argument. A Mage can handle anything, a Cleric cannot. This is why I say that a Mage is more powerful than the Cleric in the BG2 game. Not because the Mage can defeat the Cleric, but because the Mage will always have ways to defeat the Cleric. There is a subtle difference.

I agree, lets end the bickering part.

I have never bickered in this thread, just debating and giving my point of view. [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

I frankly don't see how a cleric can beat a mage unless the players are unequal!

Frankly, all the arguments given for cleric's beating mages here have assumed that

A) The player of the mage/sorceror has less intellect than Good Ol' George on crack

or

B) The Mage/Sorceror stands completely still for 100 rounds.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Galadria:
All good points, Eldoran, but you should know that when you're talking to Dundee, you're talking to a player who has beaten the whole game, solo, TWICE. That's right, not even Imoen. See his other posts. ;) Besides, that's the way we get along: we argue minutae.<hr></blockquote>


LOL! There are plenty of us around who've done stuff like that! Robert the bard has finished the game way more times than I have, and I've played every kit/class to the end of the strongholds, and finished ToB four times, and SoA six times, including once as solo Sorc, the other as solo Cleric.

I couldn't seperate the two. Cleric is just as powerful (yes offensively) as a Sorcerer, just in other ways. You have to play to their strengths.

How long would it take to cast the antimagic scroll? I'm assuming longer than time stop.

You'd finish casting your scroll and either you'd be immuned with no spells or I would. This is no problem, because I have just cast project image, improved alacrity and summoned

-Planetar
-6 Mord's swords
-6 Skele Warriors

and cast on myself
-stoneskins
-protection from magical weapons
-fireshield (red)
-tensor's transformation

then, the time wears out, you look smug because I can't use magic on you....you see my army of summons....see me and my protections/fighter skills and then get pounded down.

Even if I can't summon all these (I may have got a bit carried away ;) ) my Planetar will still beat you in mele and can also cast a fair few offensive spells itself.


Were not arguing..are we? No. Your only saying that because you want this debate to end as you don't see how you can win it.

[img]graemlins/bootyshake.gif[/img] :D

Why don't you guys just fight it out in multiplayer? Quickest way to prove a point.

Otherwise, until you've tried it don't knock it.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Yorick:
Why don't you guys just fight it out in multiplayer? Quickest way to prove a point.
Otherwise, until you've tried it don't knock it.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, that is unfair to both Clerics and Mages. This is because all the party-friendly offensive spells become useless.

Now, Neverwinter Nights. That, that might end this debate with finality.

Um, why would you use the anti-magic scroll ON THE CLERIC?!?!!? It would be cast on the MAGE, so the MAGE couldn't cast another spell. At this time, as the mage has no stoneskin, no tenser's transformation, no mantles, he is very, VERY outclassed by the clerics AC and better weapons. Also, clerics can summon their own big helpers. Pit fiends are examples. Devas could be summoned instead.

While I LVOE Mordenkainen's Sword, they get rocked by spells that do any damage. They don't have many hit points, and so when my firestorm gets cast, they are in trouble.

None of use are about to relinquish our positions here, so what is the point of this thread?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Um, why would you use the anti-magic scroll ON THE CLERIC?!?!!? It would be cast on the MAGE, so the MAGE couldn't cast another spell.

You cannot cast on an invisible Mage.

While I LVOE Mordenkainen's Sword, they get rocked by spells that do any damage. They don't have many hit points, and so when my firestorm gets cast, they are in trouble.

While you casting your spell, the Mage is also doing something by the way. He will not just stick around doing nothing. IIRC also, they can only be hit by Magic Damage like Magic Missile or Skull Trap. Death Spell and Death Fog also works.

None of use are about to relinquish our positions here, so what is the point of this thread?

Friendly debate, although it seems to have degenerated quite a bit.<hr></blockquote>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by toriuxik:
Um, why would you use the anti-magic scroll ON THE CLERIC?!?!!? It would be cast on the MAGE, so the MAGE couldn't cast another spell.<hr></blockquote>

If you'll look at my post you will see that I never assumend whoyou were casting it on. I meerly pointed out that I believed that I could cast time stop before you cast your Protection from Magic scroll.

Therefore, with improved alacrity I have already cast all the spells I want, including Tensors, so all you've done is protected me from your own spells. Do you think you could go up against a fighter of the same level as you without being able to use spells on him? Whilst being attacked by Planetars/Mordie's Swords and breathed on by huge Dragon heads/Crushed by disembodied hands?


Hmmm?

[img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

Still arguing, hmm?

Well, it's a slow day and I'm feeling stupid, so I'll jump in with these tidbits.

Insect Plague will work on anyone, and invisibility is not a defense. So if Insect Plague is memorized up to the max (let's say 10 times), the Mage is toast. Powerful Mage bit/stung to death while a Cleric sings a hymn. Maybe for extra fun the Cleric will throw in an Earthquake. Or Implosion.
**Note** Too bad Insect Plague is available only to Druids and not Clerics.

Also, I notice Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is getting a lot of mention. Too bad it's an area spell, which means a Mage can't target a Cleric with it - only the area in which the Cleric resides. Just move a few steps when you see that big ol spell coming atcha.

So far, I consider the only clear advantages a Mage has over a Cleric to come from Time Stop and Imprisonment. But as I believe I have said earlier, simply because one can defeat the other in a single encounter doesn't mean the victor is more powerful. Sorry for all the disappointed egos, but it's true. And the reason people solo more often with Mages is NOT because they're more powerful, but because they're easier to play, especially when you factor in the foreknowledge of what's going to happen next.

Try assigning a solo Cleric and a solo Mage to two people who've never played the game and see who has the tougher time.

OK my rant is done.