Huh, any challenge left when you play with 2 sorcerors and other mages ?
(and probably some R/C or F/M also)

You should seriously consider no reloads challenge. :D </font>[/QUOTE]ascention,tactics mod and improved battles on core...

urm...

FOOOOODD FFFIIGGGHHHTTT!!!

cheese vs cheese...i am trying to beat my own records...cheesing every single encounter in tactics, ascention and improved battles..

its actually quite a challenge...i've already discovered ways to cheese the first few encounters in improved battles, using a combination of really naughty tricks...

actually moonfruit requested that i start a cheesing battles thread so people who will work on battles later can use as a reference to improve it... ;) ;) ;)

hey, its actually harder to cheese sometimes, since a lot of stuff i've written up have a lot of preparation steps involved...much easier to just rush in with a tank...

Huh, I alway thought that my monks were cheesy,

Case in point:


Draco
Human Male
Monk level 18
Strength 18/00
Dexterity 18
Constitution 17
Intelligence 7
Wisdom 8
Charisma 7.
To summarize; it was one incredible roll for his stats. I killed Firkraag in 5 hits and that was without his magic fist.

If u want my opinion he is cheesy to the MAX!!!!

"There can be only one, and he does not share power."
Gandalf the Grey.

try a monk sorceror tagteam...if you think quivering fist was cool, try a spell triggered lower resistance, lower resistance and malison before your monk applies the coup...

gotta try monk one of these days...but not giving up my sorc, nope... [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

I remember somebody once had a party of 6 Sorcerers... I can only imagine what the Boss Battles were like in ToB. After all the Time Stops finishes... all that will be left will be smouldering piles of ashes while they high-five each other.

For SoA, a team of 2 Sorcerers would be interesting. Perhaps the PC and Kelsey together... ...

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The rebalanced shapeshifter is indeed ridiculous. I concur with that.

If the WS->Thief is cheese, only because of the UAIHLA, then the HLA is cheese. You mention a roleplaying perspective. Fine: don't use magic items then. The game allows for it, but because it is roleplayingly incorrect, it is cheese? I say not. And if you feel the rulemakers have errored, then the combination of WS->Thief shouldnt have been allowed in the first place, which I think is a little harsh.

Why are dualled fighters cheese? They start as a fighter, then stop being a fighter and learn another class. Through your reasoning you would say that the entire dualclassing is cheese. Cmon.

And on a general note: the topic was classes that are cheese, not certain combinations of moves that classes can perform. Cheese is when you abuse a hard-coded limitation of the game. So when you can get infinte spells without abusing rules, is it then considered NON-cheese?
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Sure, the topic was about classes that are considered cheese, or combinations of classes, see my first post.

Perhaps I was a little harsh by saying that human choosing a fighter kit dualled to any class is cheesy. I was merely thinking of the difference between a multiclassed character and a dualled character. If you dual from berserker you get the awesome ability berserk, and if you dual from kensai you get kai and THACO bonus and some more bonus with a few armor restrictions though (my kensai/thief in SoA couldn't wear leather at all, he couldn't wear anything actually, except a cloak and a regeneration stone). Also, a dualled fighter can be a grandmaster in a weapon where a multiclassed fighter cannot, I think; Jaheira can't anyway.

So what is cheese then? A tactic can be cheesy but a class cannot? I was a little confused about what it might have meant. So just I thought a class that can be "too powerful" in comparison to the rest of the classes is considered cheesy. Easy as that.

From what I understand, classes and tactics and whatnot can only be cheesy if the player makes them that way. I define cheese as taking advantage of a game loophole or limitation that wouldn't exist in real life or in a PnP D&D campaign.

For example, kensais can't wear armor. But the game doesn't consider mage robes to be armor. If a kensai dual-classes to a mage, the kensai/mage can wear mage robes. A real-life DM might rule out mage robes for kensai/mages because robes aren't really defensive armor, but highly beneficial armor nonetheless. But the game doesn't. That's what makes kensai/mages cheesy--all of the bonuses from the kensai kit, but none of the drawbacks. Same with the wizard slayer/thief dual class and a certain ToB thief ability that takes away all of the drawbacks of the wizard slayer kit.

Powerful classes aren't cheesy. I think if you build a character with decent stats and items and keep the adventure challenging throughout the game, you've got a decent character. However, if you're spending hours and hours rolling stats and planning gear and spells and items and quest order before you even start playing the game, I think that's cheese. By that point, you're not playing the game, you're planning a never-fail strategy.

(Personally, I also think that this keeps powergaming modmakers in business. People think that the game can only be played in a certain way, so they keep playing the game that way, and quickly tire of it. So people design super-tough fights to keep them challenged, and encourage cheese tactics because that's the only way to win those new super-tough fights, and then the modmakers introduce +12 hackmaster swords to make the game easier for people who install the super-tough fights, et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseum.)

To explain why a class is cheesy it's only natural to talk about what that class can do is it not?

"A class can't be cheesy if you don't use cheese..."
"cheese is taking advantage of game loopholes or limitations...".
"powerful classes aren't cheesy..."

Yes I get the picture. [img]smile.gif[/img] It seems this is the general opinion of what cheese is.

[ 12-04-2003, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: el_kalkylus ]

On a COMPLETELY unrelated note, I was playing Age of Empires 2 the other night. The enemy nations managed to collect all 5 Relics, but oddly enough, at least one of them was located in a Monastery right next to one of my gates. So I trained a couple of extra Monks, set up a couple of Trebuchets right across the river from their Monastery, and let fly. My 2 brave Monks zipped into enemy territory (with some covering fire from my nearby Castle), grabbed the 2 Relics, and zipped back to my own Monastery. They must have felt the adrenaline rush, because as soon as they put the Relics down, they started healing each other's wounds--and they looked EXACTLY like they were high-fiving each other as they did so.
"You da MAN!"
"No way, dude--YOU da man!"
"Hey, WE da man!"
"Awright! Let's grab some mead."

Getting back on topic now......

Let me add just two more definitions:
1) Cheese is anything that either erases the drawbacks of a class (or kit), violates the roleplaying ethics of that class (or kit), or renders some other class (or kit) completely obsolete. I have no objections whatsoever to a Berserker->Mage: Just because you're intelligent doesn't mean you don't get pissed off now and then. But a Wizard Slayer->Mage makes very little sense at all. (I should add that plenty of Fighter Duals make perfect sense, and aren't the least bit cheesy.)

2) Cheese is anything that gives the enemy almost no chance of victory. This includes, but is not limited to: Project Image, Cloak of Mirroring, Nature's Beauty, stacks of Traps, Sanchuudoku, Staff-of-the-Magi permanent Invisibility, Solaufein, Shield of Balduran against Beholders, Valen, Mislead abuse, Trapping spawn points, any type of Endless-Spell strategies, Cloudkill-and-slam-the-door tactics, anything from the Rebalanced Shapeshifter MOD, blocking doorways with Invisible party members, abusing Reload knowledge, and Sequencers & Contingencies. These spells and tactics are cheesy, and generally not to be used in any situation except extremely overpowered MOD battles. In a situation like that, all bets are off--if they can be cheap, so bloody well can you.

[ 12-04-2003, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: SixOfSpades ]

once had pc sorceror, kelsey and tashia...

urm...discovered/invented sequential sunfires of doom on that run thru...

poor adolon...she was the guinea pig on my first try... ;)

oh yeah...here is a fighter kit to mage dual that is NOT cheesy...

wiz slayer-> mage....

a little illogical, maybe, but the restrictions from using magic devices makes it quite interesting, and funny...

It's true that the Greater Werebears that clerics and druids can summon fall under the Rebalanced Shapeshifter mod. However, the PC and party aren't the only ones who can summon the bears. I remember a fight with the Kelsey mod when his quest stuff was kicking in, and an evil cleric summoned bears. I installed the Rebalanced Shapeshifter mod, and those things were SO much fun. I had to use a Time Stop to get rid of the little punks. But I can see how they're cheesy when they're on the player's side.

I question the ordering of those two sentences. Did you mean to say that the Cleric summoned GWBs because you had installed Rebalanced Shapeshifter? I hope so. (In Weimer's defense, I should note that not all aspects of Rebalanced Shapeshifter are cheesy--I see nothing wrong with allowing Druids to cast Glyph of Warding.)

Have you ever played the Kelsey mod? To be as non-spoilerish as possible, there's a place where an evil (well, working for somebody evil) casts Conjure Animals. Without Rebalanced Shapeshifter installed, they're weenies. With Rebalanced Shapeshifter installed, they're GWBs. (The Kelsey battles are a step above the unmodded BG2 battle and a step below Tactics mod. Nice, challenging, and you don't have to resort to cheese to beat 'em.)

(Would've posted this yesterday, but the forums wouldn't let me post for some reason.)

Yes, I have played Kelsey, and fought that battle (2 or 3 times, I think). That's what I thought you meant in your post above, I just wanted to be sure. [img]smile.gif[/img]