It is a little strange. Historically, animals were considered chattel, i.e. private property. You could do anything with one you wanted. Just like a bottle of French wine or a Dixie Chicks CD, if you owned it, then it was your perogative if you wanted to tie it down, beat it, and run over it with you bicycle.

The animal cruelty laws change that. Torture and abuse of animals is now a crime in most states. There are some weird things about the law. For instance, domesticated animals get preferred - there are much tougher standards regarding the "abuse" of farm animals or wild animals.

<font color="cyan">EDIT: Upon further consideration of my post, I've decided to remove it. I was trying, and evidently failing, to make a philosophical point regarding the role of government in our daily lives. I failed, and managed to insult, piss off, and hurt people that I care about. I'm very sorry. :(

Just for the record...I, IN NO WAY condone the abuse, torture, or deliberate harm of pets. That wasn't my point, in any way. Re-reading my post, I can see how it came across that way. Again, I'm sorry.

I would like to ask everyone who quoted me to please remove my original post, as I have no desire to start/continue/provoke a fight.

Thanks.
Nachtrafe</font>

[ 03-24-2003, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

<font color="Deepskyblue">Nachtrafe....are you crazy?
Cause you sure sound it, let me get this straight.....it shouldnt be illiegal to barbeque your cat alive?? You hit your head when you were young or something?
It doesnt matter if the animal is YOUR property, it's still a living and sentient thing, and can feel pain, been burned alive most be one of the worst things imaginable and your saying its ok?
How would you like to be cooked alive? </font>

Sio, you should warn Nacht he'll need a flame-retardant suit before posting so vehemently. [img]graemlins/whackya.gif[/img]

The question, though, is "If animals have 'rights' what are they?" Is it right to *own* them at all? If so, what delineates your rights as owner versus their rights as living beings? Are they to remain completely free from pain? Is living too close a concern?
Here

Is it wrong to kill them for food in the first instance?
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Or what exactly is inappropriate animal-handling behavior in food industries? Is this sort of clowning illegal?
http://www.viva.org.uk/images/Galler...ter/Slt01B.jpg

[ 03-24-2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Anyone with a cat can tell you, we don't own them, they just allow us to live in their house because we can open the cans of food.

[img]graemlins/choc.gif[/img]

Edit: I won't be posting here again, because, I'm sorry, but as a vegaterian, I can't handle the pictures posted in the post above me. They are very disturbing to me, (I'm not judging them they are obviously from a slaughter house (don't know the correct term) for food processing, I'm just saying that they are too disturbing for me to see). Perhaps the owner could put in links rather than the pictures themselves? I think your words made your point fine without the pics (not to mention the download time).

[ 03-24-2003, 10:56 AM: Message edited by: harleyquinn ]

[ 03-24-2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

Having lived with cats now for the last 7 or 8 months, I'm inclined to agree with you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Erm TL...I seem to recall you getting entirely bent out of shape when someone posted similar pictures in regards to a post of yours in the War Forum...perhaps you should re-think posting these.

To answer your questions though...

Pic One: Not really. The chickens are as healthy and obviously well fed. If they aren't properly cared for, then the owner loses profit. It is incumbent upon him/her to be sure that the animals are in good shape so that he/she makes a good profit.

Pic two: Nope! I loves me some bacon and pork chops. [img]tongue.gif[/img] I know, I know...You're a vegetarian, so I'm sure you object to the eating of meat on some philosophical level. That's fine, and it's your right to do so...I just happen to disagree with you, and will happily continue to eat my steak/breakfast sausage/ckicken breast.

Pic Three: Yep! It's a clear violation of health and safety regulations. And is rather stupid to boot. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

EDIT: For poor spelling

[ 03-24-2003, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

Okay. Against my preference, I edited my post. I would note that one should question their consumption of food if they can't handle watching the process by which it is made.

I think we'd all be just a little bit more in touch with our mortality and humanity if we still had to go out in the barn and kill Bessie ourselves for dinner.

Oh, and I am a vegetarian, but it's more for food safety reasons. As far as the animal rights debate goes, I find the questions very interesting but I 'm not firm regarding the answers.

[edit]
Hey Nacht:
If you are comparing these pictures to those pictures of dead babies I went off about, aren't you tacitly admitting that these animals aren't mere chattel property???? I mean, you compared these pictures to dead babies, not smashed bottle of wine. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 03-24-2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Sacramento: 2 sheep beaten and killed with pitchforks in agriculture classroom.
Here