Very well, Epona. Let's discuss Ethical Hedonism.

an excerpt from http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/h/hedonism.htm

"Ethical hedonism is the view that our fundamental moral obligation is to maximize pleasure or happiness. Ethical hedonism is most associated with the ancient Greek philosopher Epicurus (342-270 BCE.) who taught that our life's goal should be to minimize pain and maximize pleasure. In fact, all of our actions should have that aim:

We recognize pleasure as the first good innate in us, and from pleasure we begin every act of choice and avoidance, and to pleasure we return again, using the feeling as the standard by which we judge every good. [Letter to Menoeceus]"


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Since I have become quite carnal and backslidden from my Judeo Christian upbringing, I have adhered to a loose hedonistic lifestyle. Much of it is a here and now kind of application. Anyone wish to continue?

Disclaimer - This is meant to a incite some thought provoking discussion of the philosophy of ethical hedonism as opposed to the application of the same thereby keeping it within the limitations of a family forum post.

[ 12-04-2002, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: Hiram Sedai ]

Larry - I will go read the thread in a minute!

whacky - looks like we're just getting started on the philosophy, come and join us!

Lanesra - [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Hiram - good on ya mate! And yes, I will keep it 'family viewing' ;)

Well I would like firstly to dispel the common misconception that hedonism is about seeking one's own pleasure at the expense of all else. The quote you mentioned is a good one, "our fundamental goal is to maximise pleasure or happiness". Note this does not say 'our own pleasure or happiness' although that is an important aspect.

It is rather that one wishes to reduce the sum total of misery in the world, so aims to increase one's own pleasure thus in a small way reducing the sum total of misery. But this is not done by treading on other people, rather the case that spreading happiness, starting by being happy oneself should be the goal, and acting in such a way as to impact positively on the people around you.

Nor does it mean seeking momentary pleasure at the expense of more long-term happiness. It is within the bounds of ethical hedonism to work hard at something you don't particularly enjoy in the here and now in order that the outcome brings you pleasure or happiness somewhere down the line. As long as there is a positive outcome in sight! Such as, I hate doing the dishes, but I hate living in a mess. Hence I will do the dishes even though I hate it, in order that my life will be happy through having good clean surroundings. Or I will work hard at my job, which is boring, because it may well lead to me getting the job I will enjoy and find fulfilling.

And to go back to the original question of 'is your life meaningless?' Well to the hedonist, yes, in many senses life does not have any particular meaning, as it would to a Christian for example. There is no reason 'why' we are here, and the hedonist would not spend an awful lot of his or her time contemplating such a question. Life does have meaning in the sense of what one can make of it. We are here but for a short time, we only live once, and it is important to make the most of it, and not waste it - this is the hedonists viewpoint.

I'm going to make a statement about hedonism. Ok I'm not,I'll just agree with Epona. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have seen the clans here for quite a while and I would like to know if they are clans to play games together on line, or just something to put in ones sig?

you only live once (far as i know though im sure some people are reincarnated) so whats the point of life? noone knows so no point figuring it out, pleasure is good, we all enjoy pleasure in whatever form so go for it, for me i live life to get the full happiness and joy that i can (avoiding doing it at the expense of others) so i spose im into ethical hedonism, most important thing is enjoying life, why be a wage slave, you dont do it because you want to, you do it because you want to further your enjoyment of life, its solely a means to an end, unfortunately its all in the wrong order, cos your too old to enjoy it fully once you retire [img]tongue.gif[/img] i reckon life is the wrong way round, we should be born and given all the money we'd have earnt by the time were 65 (or retirement age whatever it may be) then live on [img]smile.gif[/img] ah utopia [img]smile.gif[/img]

only thing left to worry about is what happens when i die, well im banking on buxom women, good sex, plenty of internet access etc [img]smile.gif[/img] *crosses fingers*

Ah, but if that were the case you'd have spent it all on sweets and pokemon cards (or whatever the equivalent for your era) by the time you were 5 [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Whereas an ethical hedonist doesn't ponder such questions. A good motto, although it is often used with a religious slant, is "Grant me the serenity to accept that which I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" Death for all of us is a certainty, and pondering the unknowable, what happens after that, or worrying about death in any way, is not going to change anything. Wondering what happens afterwards is a hopeless venture, and thus not pleasurable in the sense that there is no potential gain or improvement to your life to be had from it. Enjoy every minute of it, and don't worry about what comes next. Yes, ethical hedonism is pretty much incompatible with most religions [img]smile.gif[/img]

I daresay that ethical hedonism seems to be the opposite of most religions. Only the Dalai Lama keeps with the idea of bringing joy to the world by not concentrating on his own happiness. Tough to explain it.

I confess that I never really thought of any sort of hedonism to be altruistic. It seemed to be like a Roman party of sorts.

So, ethical hedonism does not account for an afterlife?

It's not altruistic as such, but it is ethical. You don't do things that will make other people miserable. So yes it can be like a roman party, but keep the noise down for the neighbours' sake!

No afterlife. It's atheistic or at least agnostic, in that there is no belief in deities, higher powers, or spirituality. Life is here and now, no need to try to explain it, or interpret it, it just *is*. Same goes for death. It happens, we know it will happen, try not to have it happen too soon, and don't worry about it since worrying about something you can't know/can't change is a waste of energies best put to other uses.

It's not altruistic as such, but it is ethical. You don't do things that will make other people miserable. So yes it can be like a roman party, but keep the noise down for the neighbours' sake!

No afterlife. It's atheistic or at least agnostic, in that there is no belief in deities, higher powers, or spirituality. Life is here and now, no need to try to explain it, or interpret it, it just *is*. Same goes for death. It happens, we know it will happen, try not to have it happen too soon, and don't worry about it since worrying about something you can't know/can't change is a waste of energies best put to other uses.</font>[/QUOTE]What then, are the similarities between ethical hedonism and existentialism? Lack of a need for a deity, taking charge over one's own destiny...except for that toga party thing, they seem alike to my layman understanding.

Could someone please answer my simple question before returning to this very interesting topic [img]smile.gif[/img]