Aviendha, it took great courage to post this and I for one hope you never stop being so open and caring. [img]smile.gif[/img] I have avoided many of those threads because over time I've seen them frequently degenerate in to pointless circular arguments or flames. Besides which after 4 or 5 of them it's pretty clear where everyone stands and not much ever changes. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Don't feel too bad, you have a kind heart and I am hoping your loved one will realize you do care and perhaps will feel less hurt. [img]smile.gif[/img] And though it may not have much meaning for you, it does for me, so I'll say "God Bless you" for being so thoughtful. *hug*

Yup, that can't be emphasized enough... I'm a 100% atheist but I have once defended religion in a debate just because the atheists in it were incredibly respectless (was on a different board and a looong time ago, probably no one has ever even heard of the board in question, but alas ;) ). Was a strange experience to argue with those with the same views; they were namely convinced religion brought nothing but trouble in the world and should be banned forever, I tried to shade it a bit, knowing the point of view was a bit harsh. Thank God the tone of the debate became more polite along the way. ;)

But Aviendha, I've seen people debating with waaay less respect for the other side's opinions, including on this board, and trust me, you weren't out of line. But it still takes much courage to come up with an apology, more people should do that. ;)

<font color="plum">Aahhh, you're gonna make me blush, <font color="red">Mouse</font>. [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

<font color="red">Aviendha</font>,

Please be assured that I have taken NO OFFENSE at any of your comments. And I doubt any of the other Christians here have either. I understand and respect your views. I also know that you never meant any disrespect with any of your comments. But BOTH sides have to "choose their words carefully" when discussing a topic where passions run deep.

Your apology is appreciated, although it was completely un-necessary. I imagine the same is true with your friend. I'm sure they know you well enough to realize your true character.

You are a dear, sweet lady, <font color="red">Aviendha</font>, and I count you as a friend.

(Besides, I simply can't resist that +5 Look of Seduction ;) )</font>

I doubt anybody would take offense for long here, Avi [img]smile.gif[/img] . After all, everybody has their own opinions and religious discussions do tend to get heated in any forum [img]smile.gif[/img]

A person would have to have something wrong with them to hold a grudge for so long IMO ;)

put your feet up, have a drink, and resume fun posting :D

Never apologise for what you beleive in! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Mark

Avi, you have my respect - you have shown what kind of person you are by posting this thread - you are a person that most of us are privileged to know and have with us here. It takes a lot of courage and lack of self-aggrandizement to apologize, irrespective of who was at fault (can't ever remember you posting something that would require an apology anyway). If more people were like you we wouldn't have half the bad blood we have here over these threads.

Again, just some simple points for everyone (I apologise for sounding like a broken record but I will keep repeating this message until people get the message):

<font color="gray">
</font>

• I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others.</font>
• Don't take things personally. Life's too short to get upset about another person's point of view.</font>
• If you can't handle people disagreeing with you, then don't get into a debate - you will not enjoy it and it will cause everyone problems.</font>
• A controversial viewpoint expressed politely, tactfully and respectfully will have a better chance of being accepted than a mainstream viewpoint expressed rudely and disrespectfully.</font>
• Remember that two of the most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean they are better than you.</font>
• Have the serenity to accept what you can not change, the courage to change that which you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.</font>
• Be willing to learn from someone you're sure is wrong.</font>
• Nothing is ever lost by walking away from a fight or a heated issue. You only lose when you lose control of yourself.</font>
• You are free to disagree, but you are not free to railroad someone else into agreeing with you.</font>

</font> We're just going through a cycle. Besides, there's a thing called a BACK button (it's on the top left hand corner of the screen, on the browser toolbar). Most people seem to forget it's there. ;)

Take care - you're a good person. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-22-2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

I dont understand why you are appologising, how can you learn about something if you *dont* question. Im a christian myself... and *I* question the 'beleives' of the 'church' a heck of a lot. I... well lets not go into that. Things are supposed to be questioned. thats just my opoin, at least.

oh yeah one other thing... how can you have a debate WITHOUT 2 sides??? lol; I find its easier not to take offence at anything that isnt personal... as a general rule.... from what Ive seen so far your... a nice person, dont take this the wrong way, I'd be honoured to have you for a friend. lol if its possible to have friends over the net. hehe. lol; you're just as brave as your namesake, if not more so. I hope I'm not flattering you, btw. Ivew said too much already...

[ 06-22-2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Calaethis Dragonsbane ]

Apollagy Accepted!

Let's all watch Neon Genesis Evangelion!

IMHO If people can't objectively question their own beliefs then they are ignorant, just believing what they are told. You should not feel bad about questioning somone on their beliefs, as long as you dont attack them personally. I question everything, and I find it just leads to more questions. If by questioning everything, you help even one person find their truth, or you help one person by making them realize that what they took for truth might not really be truth then it is worth it. I am not a christian, or really any religion. I believe certain things to be true, and I believe them to be true because I have divined truth in them. If somone can disprove something I hold to be true, then I wouldn't hold any ill will toward them, I would more apt to thank them profusely then anything, for showing me that I was living a lie. I am fascinated by what other people believe, and very interested to hear what people believe and what makes them believe it. I am glad we have religion threads here at ironworks, and I would like to see it continue. I just hope we can view them objectively though, and try to divine meaning out of people's beliefs that are portraited there.

Avi, I already had high opinion in you, but you went about two steps up with this thread [img]smile.gif[/img] .

If anyone gets offended by your own opinion it says more about them than you.