You do not carry the R&D costs on your back. You are being gouged. Is there anything wrong or illegal about that? No, getting ripped off on a deal is getting ripped off on an a deal... that's sales.

That would be stupid.

You do not carry the R&D costs on your back. You are being gouged. Is there anything wrong or illegal about that? No, getting ripped off on a deal is getting ripped off on an a deal... that's sales.

Quote:

Originally posted by Magness: TL, if you want to put some capitalist common sense into the "problem" then the socialist countries should remove their grubby hands from the drug companies and let the drug prices find their natural level.

That would be stupid. </font>[/QUOTE]No. It's capitalism, apparantly something you know nothing about. ;)

I've come to the conclusion that you must hold stock in AlphaRX. This should be the bottom line:

Drug companies sell drugs in Canada, those companies make a profit, more people can afford drugs.

Drug companies sell drugs in USA, those drug companies make a profit, less people can afford drugs.

I hold NO stocks in any drug companies. I just *HATE* with a burning, firey passion how you socialist countries are raping the American consumer with your blackmailing and artificially low prices.

Price controls are *never* good. Socialism is *never* good. Price controls from a socialist government is nearly unspeakably evil.

You're rant against socialism has absolutly nothing to do with Americans paying higher prices for prescription drugs. The only reason American consumers are being 'raped' is because American consumers won't demand that their government put a stop to BigDrugCo's price gouging.

Not allowing a consumer to shop in a market IS a price control. The FDA is using a price control on the American consumer JUST AS other countries are using price controls -- one lifts the price, one lowers, that's all. One is social welfare, one is corporate welfare -- WELFARE IS WELFARE. You are obviously not reading, or not taking time to understand, the words I am typing.

There are two obvious solutions for the capitalist:
1. Other countries remove price controls, AND
2. U.S. citizens be allowed to shop for products from other countries, just like they are for every other product they buy.

Actually, the above are really two aspects of one solution:
1. Quit price-fixing.

It's funny how you toss the word "socialist" around. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] If you really stopped to think and understand what "socialism" means, you would realize that we have a HUGE aspect of socialism in our U.S. government, no matter what we like to tell our kids when we tuck them in at night.

Look, there are two things here, one of which must be true:
1. You don't understand (whether through lack of ability or effort or refusing to think about it) that BOTH the U.S. and other countries have equal but opposing socialist controls in place for prescription drugs; or

2. You do understand that both the U.S. and other countries have socialist price controls in place, you just don't mind U.S. socialism. And, hey, if that "we can do it but you can't" stance works for you, all the better. This is called the "hypocrital opinion," but hey at it's most fundamental philosophical levels life is hypocrital.

You're rant against socialism has absolutly nothing to do with Americans paying higher prices for prescription drugs. The only reason American consumers are being 'raped' is because American consumers won't demand that their government put a stop to BigDrugCo's price gouging. </font>[/QUOTE]I do not think that the BigDrugCo's are price gouging. They are setting prices according to the market, charging what the market will bear. The market in the US is not controlled by a socialist government's ridiculous price controls.

Not allowing a consumer to shop in a market IS a price control. The FDA is using a price control on the American consumer JUST AS other countries are using price controls -- one lifts the price, one lowers, that's all. One is social welfare, one is corporate welfare -- WELFARE IS WELFARE. You are obviously not reading, or not taking time to understand, the words I am typing.

There are two obvious solutions for the capitalist:
1. Other countries remove price controls, AND
2. U.S. citizens be allowed to shop for products from other countries, just like they are for every other product they buy.

Actually, the above are really two aspects of one solution:
1. Quit price-fixing.

It's funny how you toss the word "socialist" around. [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] If you really stopped to think and understand what "socialism" means, you would realize that we have a HUGE aspect of socialism in our U.S. government, no matter what we like to tell our kids when we tuck them in at night.

Look, there are two things here, one of which must be true:
1. You don't understand (whether through lack of ability or effort or refusing to think about it) that BOTH the U.S. and other countries have equal but opposing socialist controls in place for prescription drugs; or

2. You do understand that both the U.S. and other countries have socialist price controls in place, you just don't mind U.S. socialism. And, hey, if that "we can do it but you can't" stance works for you, all the better. This is called the "hypocrital opinion," but hey at it's most fundamental philosophical levels life is hypocrital. </font>[/QUOTE]I understand things just fine. I know that it sounds repetitive. Don't care. Artificially repressed drug prices in other countries force the drug companies to raise prices in the markets that do not have government controlled, artificially low drug prices, with the US being the largest such market.

R&D must be paid for thru revenues. With the articifially low prices in the socialist countries, the drug companies have no place to recoup these R&D costs except the US market.

The socialist countries are not paying their fair shair of the R&D costs, pure and simple. They are living off of the largesse of the American health care consumer. This has to stop.

When the socialist countries stop fixing their drug prices, drug prices world wide will seek their natural level, according to the laws of supply and demand.

Well, answer this question: if there were no price controls in other countries, should the U.S. consumer be allowed to purchase the drugs from other markets?

If your answer is "no" then you got no business talkling about the law of S/D.

Please quit saying "the socialist countries." We are one, too. It's all a matter of degree.

Research & Development of new drugs doesn't help if the people can't afford them. Having the drug to only benefit the wealthy is ludicrous.

Let's talk about the real drugs in Illinois' program. Lavitra and Vioxx, I believe, are two of the primary ones. Lavitra, IIRC, thins the blood for heart patients, and Vioxx is an anti-inflamatory.

These are not designer drugs. These are a basic regiment in the daily pill routine of many senior citizens. A monthly dose of Lavitra in the US runs about $430 -- in canada it runs around $300. The drug company DOES NOT LOSE ANY MONEY in Canada -- it just makes less money. (Note: selling at a loss would be a violation of "anti-dumping" under NAFTA.)

Now, I'm not overly-sympathetic to the BigDrugCo's for that $130, especially considering its senior citizens that they're buggering the money out of. My grandmother happens to be one of them. She can't afford to pay both her meds and her rent, so she'd be out on the street if we didn't provide for her. And, that's a damned shame.

Back to economics. If the US consumer is allowed to purchase from overseas, this whole mess will work itself out. The US BigDrugCo's will likely quit selling so much overseas, forcing your much-deplored pinko socialists to come here and buy the drugs. In fact, this has already begun -- Canada is reporting shortages of some US-made drugs. As for the Irish-made, Canadian-made or other foreign drug company products, well let them sell to their own pinko socialists if they want -- what do you care about some pinko socialist's profit margin or R&D, anyway?

But, at the end of the day, Blagojevich is doing it, and it's legal, and I'm real glad. I'll probably start getting my grandmother's meds filled through Illinois's program once it comes online.

Didn't we just have this discussion? :D

This is correct

Correct but does not factor sunk costs in the economics analysis.


True... and pretty funny. I'd add that Irish, Canadian, and other foreign drug companies will face the same situation as american companies... they all subsidize their R&D through US Sales.

In the end, opening up US purchasing to competition is exactly the right solution. In fact the change with the WI program (more countries than just Canada) addresses my only complaint about the earlier programs and prevents the Drug companies from picking on Canada alone.

This is capitalism at work and should be applauded by us all. As TL said, the FDA saber rattling is pure commercial socialism, and we don't need it. Drug companies don't need protection... WE need protection. They won't like it but opening up the global market will start an arbitrage game that will equalize prices for all... like it or no. For Americans that means reduced prices... for most of the rest of the world that'll mean higher prices.

I'm not quite sure what you two are arguing about here, for once we all seem to think unadultrated capitalism is the solution. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 08-18-2004, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]